4 ms·

I think the issue is more about the lack of true diversity. Look at music for example - to achieve global success, bands all over the world need to start using

by ivoras 5y ago

I think the issue is more about the lack of true diversity. Look at music for example - to achieve global success, bands all over the world need to start using western rhytms and melodies, losing the very things that made them unique. Not that there's no innovation in niches, but those never reach the highlight. A friend of mine is a musician, and was fairly popular in his circles, but has almost a decade ago renounced all pandering to the audience, started playing incredibly complex music, polyrhythms, fractal melodies, uniquely tuned instruments - and has since lost almost all of his audience and the income which came from music. But - and this is important - he's never been both happier and more virtuosic as a musician, it fulfills him like more popular music never did. Unfortunately, he'll probably never be as appreciated as before and must have other sources of income. Edit: this is him and a single, weirdly tuned guitar: https://nikopotocnjak.bandcamp.com/ https://nikopotocnjak.bandcamp.com/

ehnto 5y ago
Perhaps the problem is that the trend of exceptionalism and the platforms that enable it, is driving everyone to want to be global successes. We should be perfectly content being successful in our communities, and with the freedom that this brings us. Our community may be our local area, or it may be our musical niche, or other niche community related to what it is you're doing. But if everyone is chasing #1, and #1 is defined by a popular vote, then you're going to eventually conform to the the lowest common denominator. This is probably more related to chasing fortune and fame, rather than objective exceptionalism in skill building that you see online.
- headsoup 5y ago
  Or as simple as the promotion of the 'self' as the greatest social unit, rather than the community or other larger unit. And that self is not focused on healthiness and contentness, but desire fulfilled, the narcissist reigns.
recuter 5y ago
I think the issue is more about the lack of true diversity. Look at music for example - to achieve global success, bands all over the world need to start using western rhytms and melodies, losing the very things that made them unique. Yes, sure, everything is about a lack of diversity. You might want to look some more into musical theory and where those twelves notes, rhythms and melodies originate from in the first place. Not that there's no innovation in niches, but those never reach the highlight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_music Starting with the 60s hippies who need a haircut got rather into Indian stuff. In the 80s you had an African wave with the likes of Paul Simon. Peter Gabriel was all over the map. Hardly niche. All of this comes and goes, and comes round again. A lot of the biggest stars at the moment are not from the US/West. has almost a decade ago renounced all pandering to the audience, started playing incredibly complex music, polyrhythms, fractal melodies, uniquely tuned instruments - and has since lost almost all of his audience and the income which came from music Jacob Collier seems to be thriving: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meha_FCcHbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meha_FCcHbo Now whether or not there is money in it is altogether a different question. Music has been devalued. You/Friend might enjoy Rick Beato ranting about this subject on Youtube. This isn't a new thing, if he wants to make money he needs to look cute, even the Beatles started by getting a makeover and going the boy band route. Such is life.
- bavell 5y ago
  +1 for Rick Beato, excellent resource and cool dude!
- elsherbini 5y ago
  Off topic, but you seem like someone who might like these less popular music theory channels I really enjoy (all to do with harmony mostly) Metaharmony - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNKBF8Phj3M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNKBF8Phj3M The Labyrinth of Limitations - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86XSsHlJSrc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86XSsHlJSrc Synthase / Midnight Oil Collective - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gWMW1Hkdik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gWMW1Hkdik
  - 5y ago
teekert 5y ago
"to achieve global success", it's unfortunate that that is often the goal indeed. Globalization kills a lot, look at Khao San Road in Bangkok, in 20 years it changed from small street stalls to big global chains. And the great homogenization will continue. In the first Ringworld, this process is also described, transport booths (in a flash you walk to any destination on earth) made every city the same. The internet and cheap flights have already started this process. Edit I also remember this being posted here once: "The same damn avocado toast" or something (can't find it anymore), about a traveler that got the same damn avocado toast everywhere he went.
- Mezzie 5y ago
  Reminds me of this article: https://nymag.com/urbanist/article/the-unbearable-sameness-of-cities.html https://nymag.com/urbanist/article/the-unbearable-sameness-o.... Also this one: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/08/why-every-city-feels-same-now/615556/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/08/why-e.... This phenomenon is why I ended up moving back to my hometown of ~100k after living in a couple of different countries + several different regions of the US/different big cities. They're all the same after a while. I missed a place that was unabashedly itself.
rob74 5y ago
Well, then I'm glad that there are plenty of bands that don't want to achieve global success and are perfectly content to continue doing their thing. I'd much rather listen to those bands (old and new) than the ones striving for global success.
clejack 5y ago
We communicate with the most detail using words, but body language, facial expressions, touch and other scrubs act as girls of communication as well. All of these things have a common foundation in pattern. What we call art is the manipulation of these common patterns. When it's most successful, it often regurgitates patterns that have proven successful. When it's most meaningful it modifies the old pattern to make new patterns that people can appreciate. The question then becomes, how much modification can you engage in before your work because meaningless to everyone but yourself. Imagine if your friend was a writer who got tired of the spoken languages and began writing novels in his own custom language. Would you lament the fact that no one reads his books? Btw, I took a (very) brief listen to your friends music and it seemed kinda interesting, but I can certainly see why he lost all of his followers.
- clejack 5y ago
  I didn't have a stroke earlier, but I did type with my phone. I'm not sure how I missed the auto correct issue. The first sentence should read: "We communicate with the most detail using words, but body language, facial expressions, touch and other [actions] act as [forms] of communication as well."
Dracophoenix 5y ago
Don't you think the issue begins with wanting to achieve global success? It seems like a Catch-22: To achieve professional success, one needs to be popular enough to capture a sufficiently large, paying audience while simultaneously be unique enough to push against the boundaries of mainstream taste. Few people listen to music to be "challenged" unless they're musicians. If anything, I'd say there's more diversity in music then there's ever been. So much so, that we develop complicated tools to find such music.
uuyi 5y ago
That’s pretty standard across everything. The moment you do stuff because you enjoy it and not to get paid or satisfy other people then your quality of life goes up. This is why I get paid to do something I hate (software eng) and live a quiet existence doing what I love. Which I’m not even going to mention on here. Not even my family knows what I love.
- tough 5y ago
  Damnt what a cliffhanger, kudos to finding your passion though and no need to share what it is as long as it keeps you fulfilled!
- catchclose8919 5y ago
  > Not even my family knows what I love. ...at least write a nice novel/biography/whatever to be found together with the bodies decades later :) Create some enjoyment opportunity for others too, don't keep it all to yourself :P
dav_Oz 5y ago
It reminds of the common advice you often read (also in HN): Go on follow your passion but secure it with a job which provides for you (and your family). In the case of a musician one such way (besides teaching) is playing in "cover bands" ("playing everything": Top40, Classics etc.) which paid astonishingly well on a gig to gig basis (from weddings to little local fests) once you are a bit established and known (even locally). I was very young (17) when I started to do that (as a drummer) mostly because I "needed" some money for "better" equipment ;) At first I hated it but after a while I appreciated the actual discipline it required and it taught me practical musical communication skills through my time playing with a lot of different musicians. So, that it in a unexpected way did not only helped me out financially but also in becoming a more well-rounded musician (i.e. "paradoxically" recognizing my own style/preferences/tastes/musicality in a more nuanced way in all that noise of hypes, genres and sub-genres ...). So, yeah the best case scenario is doing what one loves and getting paid for it but it isn't black and white either, I definitely at some point could have "sold my soul to the devil" to make more money (professionalize it) but I was actually quite satisfied with just not being constantly broke :D Once I met my basic needs (after establishing what they actually are: e.g. not more and better equipment) everything beyond I tried to consider a luxury, a bonus which worked out well for me (still enjoying doing music and the community that this brought with it) in that turbulent time of youth/early adulthood. Edit: What a lot of people don't recognize: a handful of the musicians I met, later went on to become "successful". Well, in hindsight they struck me as highly obsessive and obviously for everyone around them fighting with some serious inner demons (addiction, depression, childhood traumas ...). For them to finally "made it" can only worsen their situation. Imagine having achieved what you wanted all along, being financially independent, you now literally have no (outside) reason anymore to be unhappy this can just only further estrange you from your environment. I think we are all familiar with the excesses of fame. "To be not successful" is way easier to handle for some highly vulnerable artists (doing great music) because they at least have a better chance to stay "grounded". I mean those driven personalities by exploring boundaries become really fluid, that's what also attracts a lot of audience, unfortunately: We marvel at the sight of the end result: "pearl" (which got produced by an extraordinarly amount of stress).

by ivoras 5y ago

I think the issue is more about the lack of true diversity. Look at music for example - to achieve global success, bands all over the world need to start using western rhytms and melodies, losing the very things that made them unique. Not that there's no innovation in niches, but those never reach the highlight. A friend of mine is a musician, and was fairly popular in his circles, but has almost a decade ago renounced all pandering to the audience, started playing incredibly complex music, polyrhythms, fractal melodies, uniquely tuned instruments - and has since lost almost all of his audience and the income which came from music. But - and this is important - he's never been both happier and more virtuosic as a musician, it fulfills him like more popular music never did. Unfortunately, he'll probably never be as appreciated as before and must have other sources of income. Edit: this is him and a single, weirdly tuned guitar: https://nikopotocnjak.bandcamp.com/ https://nikopotocnjak.bandcamp.com/

ehnto 5y ago

Perhaps the problem is that the trend of exceptionalism and the platforms that enable it, is driving everyone to want to be global successes. We should be perfectly content being successful in our communities, and with the freedom that this brings us. Our community may be our local area, or it may be our musical niche, or other niche community related to what it is you're doing. But if everyone is chasing #1, and #1 is defined by a popular vote, then you're going to eventually conform to the the lowest common denominator. This is probably more related to chasing fortune and fame, rather than objective exceptionalism in skill building that you see online.

headsoup 5y ago
Or as simple as the promotion of the 'self' as the greatest social unit, rather than the community or other larger unit. And that self is not focused on healthiness and contentness, but desire fulfilled, the narcissist reigns.

recuter 5y ago

I think the issue is more about the lack of true diversity. Look at music for example - to achieve global success, bands all over the world need to start using western rhytms and melodies, losing the very things that made them unique. Yes, sure, everything is about a lack of diversity. You might want to look some more into musical theory and where those twelves notes, rhythms and melodies originate from in the first place. Not that there's no innovation in niches, but those never reach the highlight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_music Starting with the 60s hippies who need a haircut got rather into Indian stuff. In the 80s you had an African wave with the likes of Paul Simon. Peter Gabriel was all over the map. Hardly niche. All of this comes and goes, and comes round again. A lot of the biggest stars at the moment are not from the US/West. has almost a decade ago renounced all pandering to the audience, started playing incredibly complex music, polyrhythms, fractal melodies, uniquely tuned instruments - and has since lost almost all of his audience and the income which came from music Jacob Collier seems to be thriving: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meha_FCcHbo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meha_FCcHbo Now whether or not there is money in it is altogether a different question. Music has been devalued. You/Friend might enjoy Rick Beato ranting about this subject on Youtube. This isn't a new thing, if he wants to make money he needs to look cute, even the Beatles started by getting a makeover and going the boy band route. Such is life.

bavell 5y ago
+1 for Rick Beato, excellent resource and cool dude!
elsherbini 5y ago
Off topic, but you seem like someone who might like these less popular music theory channels I really enjoy (all to do with harmony mostly) Metaharmony - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNKBF8Phj3M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNKBF8Phj3M The Labyrinth of Limitations - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86XSsHlJSrc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86XSsHlJSrc Synthase / Midnight Oil Collective - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gWMW1Hkdik https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gWMW1Hkdik
- 5y ago

teekert 5y ago

"to achieve global success", it's unfortunate that that is often the goal indeed. Globalization kills a lot, look at Khao San Road in Bangkok, in 20 years it changed from small street stalls to big global chains. And the great homogenization will continue. In the first Ringworld, this process is also described, transport booths (in a flash you walk to any destination on earth) made every city the same. The internet and cheap flights have already started this process. Edit I also remember this being posted here once: "The same damn avocado toast" or something (can't find it anymore), about a traveler that got the same damn avocado toast everywhere he went.

Mezzie 5y ago
Reminds me of this article: https://nymag.com/urbanist/article/the-unbearable-sameness-of-cities.html https://nymag.com/urbanist/article/the-unbearable-sameness-o.... Also this one: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/08/why-every-city-feels-same-now/615556/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2020/08/why-e.... This phenomenon is why I ended up moving back to my hometown of ~100k after living in a couple of different countries + several different regions of the US/different big cities. They're all the same after a while. I missed a place that was unabashedly itself.

rob74 5y ago

Well, then I'm glad that there are plenty of bands that don't want to achieve global success and are perfectly content to continue doing their thing. I'd much rather listen to those bands (old and new) than the ones striving for global success.

clejack 5y ago

We communicate with the most detail using words, but body language, facial expressions, touch and other scrubs act as girls of communication as well. All of these things have a common foundation in pattern. What we call art is the manipulation of these common patterns. When it's most successful, it often regurgitates patterns that have proven successful. When it's most meaningful it modifies the old pattern to make new patterns that people can appreciate. The question then becomes, how much modification can you engage in before your work because meaningless to everyone but yourself. Imagine if your friend was a writer who got tired of the spoken languages and began writing novels in his own custom language. Would you lament the fact that no one reads his books? Btw, I took a (very) brief listen to your friends music and it seemed kinda interesting, but I can certainly see why he lost all of his followers.

clejack 5y ago
I didn't have a stroke earlier, but I did type with my phone. I'm not sure how I missed the auto correct issue. The first sentence should read: "We communicate with the most detail using words, but body language, facial expressions, touch and other [actions] act as [forms] of communication as well."

Dracophoenix 5y ago

Don't you think the issue begins with wanting to achieve global success? It seems like a Catch-22: To achieve professional success, one needs to be popular enough to capture a sufficiently large, paying audience while simultaneously be unique enough to push against the boundaries of mainstream taste. Few people listen to music to be "challenged" unless they're musicians. If anything, I'd say there's more diversity in music then there's ever been. So much so, that we develop complicated tools to find such music.

uuyi 5y ago

That’s pretty standard across everything. The moment you do stuff because you enjoy it and not to get paid or satisfy other people then your quality of life goes up. This is why I get paid to do something I hate (software eng) and live a quiet existence doing what I love. Which I’m not even going to mention on here. Not even my family knows what I love.

tough 5y ago
Damnt what a cliffhanger, kudos to finding your passion though and no need to share what it is as long as it keeps you fulfilled!
catchclose8919 5y ago
> Not even my family knows what I love. ...at least write a nice novel/biography/whatever to be found together with the bodies decades later :) Create some enjoyment opportunity for others too, don't keep it all to yourself :P

dav_Oz 5y ago

It reminds of the common advice you often read (also in HN): Go on follow your passion but secure it with a job which provides for you (and your family). In the case of a musician one such way (besides teaching) is playing in "cover bands" ("playing everything": Top40, Classics etc.) which paid astonishingly well on a gig to gig basis (from weddings to little local fests) once you are a bit established and known (even locally). I was very young (17) when I started to do that (as a drummer) mostly because I "needed" some money for "better" equipment ;) At first I hated it but after a while I appreciated the actual discipline it required and it taught me practical musical communication skills through my time playing with a lot of different musicians. So, that it in a unexpected way did not only helped me out financially but also in becoming a more well-rounded musician (i.e. "paradoxically" recognizing my own style/preferences/tastes/musicality in a more nuanced way in all that noise of hypes, genres and sub-genres ...). So, yeah the best case scenario is doing what one loves and getting paid for it but it isn't black and white either, I definitely at some point could have "sold my soul to the devil" to make more money (professionalize it) but I was actually quite satisfied with just not being constantly broke :D Once I met my basic needs (after establishing what they actually are: e.g. not more and better equipment) everything beyond I tried to consider a luxury, a bonus which worked out well for me (still enjoying doing music and the community that this brought with it) in that turbulent time of youth/early adulthood. Edit: What a lot of people don't recognize: a handful of the musicians I met, later went on to become "successful". Well, in hindsight they struck me as highly obsessive and obviously for everyone around them fighting with some serious inner demons (addiction, depression, childhood traumas ...). For them to finally "made it" can only worsen their situation. Imagine having achieved what you wanted all along, being financially independent, you now literally have no (outside) reason anymore to be unhappy this can just only further estrange you from your environment. I think we are all familiar with the excesses of fame. "To be not successful" is way easier to handle for some highly vulnerable artists (doing great music) because they at least have a better chance to stay "grounded". I mean those driven personalities by exploring boundaries become really fluid, that's what also attracts a lot of audience, unfortunately: We marvel at the sight of the end result: "pearl" (which got produced by an extraordinarly amount of stress).