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From the (quick) search I did following your un-sourced claim : the Hindu castes system existed centuries before the arrival of the British in India. And are yo

From the (quick) search I did following your un-sourced claim : the Hindu castes system existed centuries before the arrival of the British in India. And are you claiming one could have been born a Dalit and become a Brahmin (or whatever the "non-british" castes names you want to give them) during his lifetime? I highly doubt it ever was as casual as you make it sound... It seems this claim is somewhat popular in some indian circles, judging from this quick search. One can't praise a millenary culture and at the same time claim it can be reshaped totally from a short colonial period.

zozbot234 5y ago
The caste system is not "Hindu" in origin. According to some theories it may have originated after the Mongol invasions of India.
- srean 5y ago
  Citation please. How tested is this 'theory'. Caste gets a mention in Manusmriti . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmriti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmriti Manusmriti is 2 century BC whereas Mongol invasion is middle ages and had very little impact in India because for various reasons the Mongols did not really get inside India although there were a few battles where some Mongol generals tested the borders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_India Bhakti movement, a reformist movement of Hinduism mentions caste, thats 8th century AD, well before Mongol invasion. There is mention of caste in Budhdhist, Jain and Sikh literature as well. A significant component of many of these religion were a rejection of the prevailing caste system. From the sound of it, the parent's claim has a whiff of what is derogatorily referred to as propaganda of WhatsApp University -- a well oiled and funded propaganda and fake news machinery of the political party in power. Please do not fall for it.
  - himyogi 5y ago
    Two big bloopers 1) Mongols never invaded India. Even though they reached river Sindh while hunting a Muslim ruler. They had deference towards India - the land Buddhism arose from. Some historians say lack of grassland etc but they never came here. Even your Wiki link says the same except for the disingenuous headline. Kashmir was invaded my Muslims from Mongol captured regions not Mingols themselves. Mongols were not Muslims. 2) Show me the Sanskrit text of manusmriti talking about anything but the varna system. I have studied this in original Sanskrit and dont need cut/paste reference to bolster common but false propaganda from Wiki or WhatsApp university. Satmaye Jayate - truth is always victorious.
    - srean 5y ago
      > Mongols never invaded India. Even though they reached river Sindh I agree with you and havent claimed otherwise (quoting myself: Mongols did not really get inside India although there were a few battles where some Mongol generals tested the borders.). Was responding to parent's claim that caste system was an artifact Mongol invasion. Not sure what relevance of them not being Muslims or the scarcity/search for grassland (both true statements) have anything to the topic though. > Show me the Sanskrit text of manusmriti talking about anything but the varna system. The word caste of course cannot occur in a sanskrit text. By caste one means the varna system of designating people into Brahmins, Kshatriya ... and others
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        The varna is about individual callings or occupations, not caste as understood today in India. It also has its correlates elsewhere, e.g. in the Confucian "four occupations of the people" and the tripartite division in the West. Would you say that Europe had a caste system historically because of the definition of First, Second and Third Estates?
        srean 5y ago
        > The varna is about individual callings or occupation, not caste as understood today in India. That's certainly what the caste denialist narrative desparately wants to paint. It certainly is not the consensus.
      - pkphilip 5y ago
        Even the Govardhan Mutt Shankararcharya - one of the custodians of Advaita, argues clearly that the varna and jati are integral to Hinduism and he supports the caste system. You can find his videos on Youtube.
himyogi 5y ago
Reference Bhagvad Gita 4-13 . It talks about 4 varnas based on Guna & karmas. The famous sage Valmiki was a Shudra who became a Brahmin by composing the epic Ramayana.
- srean 5y ago
  > The famous sage Valmiki was a Shudra who became a Brahmin by composing the epic Ramayana. Could you cite a reference ? The traditional stories that I have heard from my grandparents tells a different story. That he was born Agni Sharma (Brahmin) and acquired the name Valmiki for reciting the words "death" (mara) which repeated seemed he was chanting "Rama".
- the_omegist 5y ago
  Thanks for the reference. But you're giving me a religious text source (which I won't be able to analyze). What I was asking you was more straight forward : can you show me that farmers son could marry priests daughters (or whatever "caste" combination you want) before the British colonization of India? I don't think so.

zozbot234 5y ago

The caste system is not "Hindu" in origin. According to some theories it may have originated after the Mongol invasions of India.

srean 5y ago
Citation please. How tested is this 'theory'. Caste gets a mention in Manusmriti . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmriti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manusmriti Manusmriti is 2 century BC whereas Mongol invasion is middle ages and had very little impact in India because for various reasons the Mongols did not really get inside India although there were a few battles where some Mongol generals tested the borders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_India Bhakti movement, a reformist movement of Hinduism mentions caste, thats 8th century AD, well before Mongol invasion. There is mention of caste in Budhdhist, Jain and Sikh literature as well. A significant component of many of these religion were a rejection of the prevailing caste system. From the sound of it, the parent's claim has a whiff of what is derogatorily referred to as propaganda of WhatsApp University -- a well oiled and funded propaganda and fake news machinery of the political party in power. Please do not fall for it.
- himyogi 5y ago
  Two big bloopers 1) Mongols never invaded India. Even though they reached river Sindh while hunting a Muslim ruler. They had deference towards India - the land Buddhism arose from. Some historians say lack of grassland etc but they never came here. Even your Wiki link says the same except for the disingenuous headline. Kashmir was invaded my Muslims from Mongol captured regions not Mingols themselves. Mongols were not Muslims. 2) Show me the Sanskrit text of manusmriti talking about anything but the varna system. I have studied this in original Sanskrit and dont need cut/paste reference to bolster common but false propaganda from Wiki or WhatsApp university. Satmaye Jayate - truth is always victorious.
  - srean 5y ago
    > Mongols never invaded India. Even though they reached river Sindh I agree with you and havent claimed otherwise (quoting myself: Mongols did not really get inside India although there were a few battles where some Mongol generals tested the borders.). Was responding to parent's claim that caste system was an artifact Mongol invasion. Not sure what relevance of them not being Muslims or the scarcity/search for grassland (both true statements) have anything to the topic though. > Show me the Sanskrit text of manusmriti talking about anything but the varna system. The word caste of course cannot occur in a sanskrit text. By caste one means the varna system of designating people into Brahmins, Kshatriya ... and others
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      The varna is about individual callings or occupations, not caste as understood today in India. It also has its correlates elsewhere, e.g. in the Confucian "four occupations of the people" and the tripartite division in the West. Would you say that Europe had a caste system historically because of the definition of First, Second and Third Estates?
      - srean 5y ago
        > The varna is about individual callings or occupation, not caste as understood today in India. That's certainly what the caste denialist narrative desparately wants to paint. It certainly is not the consensus.
    - pkphilip 5y ago
      Even the Govardhan Mutt Shankararcharya - one of the custodians of Advaita, argues clearly that the varna and jati are integral to Hinduism and he supports the caste system. You can find his videos on Youtube.

himyogi 5y ago

Reference Bhagvad Gita 4-13 . It talks about 4 varnas based on Guna & karmas. The famous sage Valmiki was a Shudra who became a Brahmin by composing the epic Ramayana.

srean 5y ago
> The famous sage Valmiki was a Shudra who became a Brahmin by composing the epic Ramayana. Could you cite a reference ? The traditional stories that I have heard from my grandparents tells a different story. That he was born Agni Sharma (Brahmin) and acquired the name Valmiki for reciting the words "death" (mara) which repeated seemed he was chanting "Rama".
the_omegist 5y ago
Thanks for the reference. But you're giving me a religious text source (which I won't be able to analyze). What I was asking you was more straight forward : can you show me that farmers son could marry priests daughters (or whatever "caste" combination you want) before the British colonization of India? I don't think so.