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I work in IC design. The foundry do not get involved in ecos. Ecos are all done at source, before tapeout to foundry. Inserting logic into an existing design wo

I work in IC design. The foundry do not get involved in ecos. Ecos are all done at source, before tapeout to foundry. Inserting logic into an existing design would require intimate knowledge of the design, which the foundry does not have, without very extensive reverse engineering, which a single rouge actor in a foundry is not capable of.

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 4y ago
Because I’ve seen the mistake here before: “rouge” is the color red in French. “rogue” is the correct word in your context (“rogue actor”).
- tails4e 4y ago
  Ouch. I know my rogue from my rouge, but typing on a phone has a really high error rate for me.
netr0ute 4y ago
> which a single rouge actor in a foundry is not capable of If this were true, then the Apple M1 would never be as reverse engineered as it is now.
- turminal 4y ago
  That's a very different kind of reverse engineering
- dtgriscom 4y ago
  Figuring out the block diagram of a chip is very different from mapping out the physical location of all the busses and gates so that you can splice new circuitry in without damaging the existing functionality.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  Reverse engineering for compatibility does not give you an insight to any backdoors there, just as even having the full source code for a system does not trivially reveal all the backdoors or bugs it has.
lisper 4y ago
I work in IC design too, and you are correct that this would be nearly impossible for someone at a foundry to pull off. But it would not be hard at all for a mole on the chip design team to do. And based on what I've seen I don't think it would be very hard for a state actor to get moles into most major chip design firms. Indeed, the measures required to protect against this would be scarier to me than the back doors. It is even possible that chip designers insert back doors into their chips intentionally (no state-sponsored moles required) so they can covertly sell those capabilities to state actors as an additional revenue source. This might not even be illegal.
- mr_toad 4y ago
  > would not be hard at all for a mole on the chip design team to do But that would put a back door on every chip made from that design, and it would increase the odds of it being discovered.
  - lisper 4y ago
    That's true, but it would be equally true of a backdoor inserted at the foundry by the technique described in TFA. Also, it is possible to insert back doors into hardware in ways that would be very hard to spot even by people familiar with the design. I've seen automated design tools emit some pretty weird shit, and for all I know it might have been a back door. But it passed LEC and DRC so it shipped.
- rmbyrro 4y ago
  > This might not even be illegal. Shows we should not conflate right/wrong with legal/illegal. Some overlap, but certainly down from 100%.
  - R0b0t1 4y ago
    It probably is illegal, but only if there's damages, because that is usually how civil penalties work. In a way it makes sense: how do you know they did it if you have had no damage done? The illegality is the damages regardless of how they occurred, but potentially also breach of contract if you think to specify "no backdoors" in your contract.
R0b0t1 4y ago
You can detect features with visual ML. Sometimes no ML needed because features so regular.

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 4y ago

Because I’ve seen the mistake here before: “rouge” is the color red in French. “rogue” is the correct word in your context (“rogue actor”).

tails4e 4y ago
Ouch. I know my rogue from my rouge, but typing on a phone has a really high error rate for me.

netr0ute 4y ago

> which a single rouge actor in a foundry is not capable of If this were true, then the Apple M1 would never be as reverse engineered as it is now.

turminal 4y ago
That's a very different kind of reverse engineering
dtgriscom 4y ago
Figuring out the block diagram of a chip is very different from mapping out the physical location of all the busses and gates so that you can splice new circuitry in without damaging the existing functionality.
PeterisP 4y ago
Reverse engineering for compatibility does not give you an insight to any backdoors there, just as even having the full source code for a system does not trivially reveal all the backdoors or bugs it has.

lisper 4y ago

I work in IC design too, and you are correct that this would be nearly impossible for someone at a foundry to pull off. But it would not be hard at all for a mole on the chip design team to do. And based on what I've seen I don't think it would be very hard for a state actor to get moles into most major chip design firms. Indeed, the measures required to protect against this would be scarier to me than the back doors. It is even possible that chip designers insert back doors into their chips intentionally (no state-sponsored moles required) so they can covertly sell those capabilities to state actors as an additional revenue source. This might not even be illegal.

mr_toad 4y ago
> would not be hard at all for a mole on the chip design team to do But that would put a back door on every chip made from that design, and it would increase the odds of it being discovered.
- lisper 4y ago
  That's true, but it would be equally true of a backdoor inserted at the foundry by the technique described in TFA. Also, it is possible to insert back doors into hardware in ways that would be very hard to spot even by people familiar with the design. I've seen automated design tools emit some pretty weird shit, and for all I know it might have been a back door. But it passed LEC and DRC so it shipped.
rmbyrro 4y ago
> This might not even be illegal. Shows we should not conflate right/wrong with legal/illegal. Some overlap, but certainly down from 100%.
- R0b0t1 4y ago
  It probably is illegal, but only if there's damages, because that is usually how civil penalties work. In a way it makes sense: how do you know they did it if you have had no damage done? The illegality is the damages regardless of how they occurred, but potentially also breach of contract if you think to specify "no backdoors" in your contract.

R0b0t1 4y ago

You can detect features with visual ML. Sometimes no ML needed because features so regular.