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> Looking at this war (and compare it to the fighting in 2014-2015) it is very noticeable how much a progress Ukraine has made in the last 8 years and in partic

> Looking at this war (and compare it to the fighting in 2014-2015) it is very noticeable how much a progress Ukraine has made in the last 8 years and in particular absorbing all the new developments in the technology while Russia in many areas hasn't progressed since 1945. Even worse than that for Russia. The "Moskova" was created in Mykolaiv, Ukraine. The warship itself was a creation of the USSR, but has more to do with Ukraine's manufacturing prowess than present-day Russia. Russia wants to pretend that the USSR's history is Russia and Russia's alone. That's why Russia wants to erase Ukrainian history. But this war is proving that Ukrainian contributions to the old USSR's power was mighty and cannot be ignored. ------ The mighty warship was created by Ukraine, and brought down by Ukrainian missiles. The story here is really about how Russia has forgotten their Slavic brother's contributions to the USSR. EDIT: It is quite possible that Ukrainians knew some kind of weakness to the ship that they exploited during the attack.

rosndo 5y ago
> EDIT: It is quite possible that Ukrainians knew some kind of weakness to the ship that they exploited during the attack. Such as that it’s loaded with explosives that won’t respond well to being hit with anti ship missiles?
- sliken 5y ago
  More along the lines of the radar for most of it's systems point forward, leaving the rear much less protected by anti-missile tech.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Its a cruiser. Which means the ship was loaded with anti-missile missiles, anti-missile RADAR, and anti-missile CIWS. The fact remains that the Ukrainians killed an anti-missile cruiser, with... a missile. That's impressive. Something horribly wrong has happened to the Russian anti-missile defense systems. That suggests that the Ukrainians know about a weakness to the Russian missile defense systems... a blindspot where the RADAR wouldn't pickup enemy missiles perhaps? In any case, maybe its not so surprising, Ukrainians built the ship after all.
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    Apparently the ship’s armaments were vastly out of date. Its combat systems were from 90s and it had no modern anti-missile defences. Its offensive weaponry was more impressive, but even then it barely carried the radars to support them.
  - speeder 5y ago
    I saw elsewhere that an upgrade was proposed but the budget for it was denied... I guess it is just a matter of reading the proposal, figure out what needed upgrading, and considering that to be the weakness you can exploit. An analogy would be finding out the castle you want to conquer was supposed to have a rear gate repaired but the repairs were postponed... it would be quite obvious to attack that rear gate.
  - saynay 5y ago
    What I was hearing earlier is the old anti-missile RADAR that was in use on that ship was not capable of dealing with targets approaching from multiple sides at once, and so the Ukrainians flew a UAV on one side to effectively "distract" it, while the Neptunes struck it on the other side.
  - RajT88 5y ago
    > That suggests that the Ukrainians know about a weakness to the Russian missile defense systems... a blindspot where the RADAR wouldn't pickup enemy missiles perhaps? In any case, maybe its not so surprising, Ukrainians built the ship after all. One of the weaknesses of missile defense systems, is they can only engage a small number of targets at a time. If you knew the Moskva could engage (say) 12 incoming missiles at a time, you fire 24 all at the same time. There was some articles on it a few years back, which of course I can't find now. It was regarding virtual wargames, where one commander handily won by, basically, firing everything all at once at the start of the game.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      > If you knew the Moskva could engage (say) 12 incoming missiles at a time, you fire 24 all at the same time. That's the sort of thing that's a classified secret. None of us know how many missiles the Moskva could handle. But the Ukrainians knew, and fired (at least) +1 missile over its capacity. Ukrainians are savvy, but they don't have enough missiles to really be throwing "eeeh, maybe 20 at the same time is enough??". Whatever battle plan they did here and implemented was surely based on their intelligence... stuff even USA wouldn't be privy to.
trhway 5y ago
>EDIT: It is quite possible that Ukrainians knew some kind of weakness to the ship that they exploited during the attack. not really. If they could they would hit the cruiser's anti-ship missiles - that would sent the ship immediately down instead of the whole fire/towing story. You just can't always hit that precisely from like 30 miles distance coming at transonic speed, and who knows what defense measures were activated by the ship. If anything, the weakness exploited here is the Russian poor state of combat readiness. The ship was mostly hanging around there for more than a month. All that time they were supposed to man the radars and keep CIWS/etc. combat ready - no way for Russian Navy. Maintaining combat readiness is a big issue even for shorter time frames - for example in 2008 while guarding the assault ships convoy on the way to Georgia "Moskva" was hit by the very brave and brazen unexpected night attack by Georgian small ships. Fortunately for "Moskva" back then the Georgians didn't have any weapons except small caliber artillery (it is really hard to imagine the courage of those Georgians to perform such an attack - just 4 small ships against that overwhelmingly large Russian Navy force. One of those Georgian ships was sunk by Russian anti-ship missile).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
fuoqi 5y ago
>The warship itself was a creation of the USSR, but has more to do with Ukraine's manufacturing prowess than present-day Russia. >The mighty warship was created by Ukraine The independent Ukraine with all its "manufacturing prowess" was unable to finish its sister ship Ukraina for 30 years. It got almost sold to Russia in 2010. >brought down by Ukrainian missiles With a tinsy bit of help from the NATO radars and surveillance drones.
- jollybean 5y ago
  If you don't have money or strategic reason to finish a ship, or arm it you don't finish it. Frankly, that kind of ship has no place in a Ukrainian fleet, so to spend billions on it would make no sense. Ukraine as a province of Russian Empire, for that Empire - yes. But not for Ukraine proper. That ship is designed to take on American fleet in Black Sea and elsewhere. Ukraine just needs to a small / fast Black Sea fleet and possibly a few micro subs etc..
  - worik 5y ago
    > Ukraine just needs to a small / fast Black Sea fleet and possibly a few micro subs etc.. And a lot of missiles....
ctrlaltdelete95 5y ago
Please don’t call Ukraine Russia’s slavic brother. That’s how russians justify the war - “we are protecting our brothers from the nazis”. Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Let’s not perpetuate russian propaganda.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  I recognize its Russia's propaganda, but I enjoy corrupting their propaganda / words into other uses. There is truth in this matter: USSR was composed of many modern nations. This whole "Moskva ship sinks" thing is almost entirely Ukrainian, historically speaking. Ukrainian-built ship, brought down with Ukrainian missiles, with the Russians renaming the ship to Moskva to try to "steal" its way into history. I find this entire situation deliciously ironic for the Russians. It really shows how much of a paper-tiger they are, and how much Russia is trying to steal the USSR's name and history for themselves.
  - _jal 5y ago
    > It really shows how much of a paper-tiger they are In a straight fight, it sure looks that way. But a weak, frightened and embarrassed authoritarian nuclear power is a very dangerous thing.
ivan_gammel 5y ago
> The warship itself was a creation of the USSR, but has more to do with Ukraine's manufacturing prowess than present-day Russia. It is indeed the product of USSR, which had integrated supply chain and R&D. Very likely some components of it were manufactured in Russia. Ukraine alone would not be able to build and maintain such ship due to budget and resource constraints, but Russia has rebuilt its capabilities in XXI century — their military industrial complex can maintain, upgrade and build such ships. I doubt though they will commission a replacement any time soon, since they are actively building lots of smaller vessels.

rosndo 5y ago

> EDIT: It is quite possible that Ukrainians knew some kind of weakness to the ship that they exploited during the attack. Such as that it’s loaded with explosives that won’t respond well to being hit with anti ship missiles?

sliken 5y ago
More along the lines of the radar for most of it's systems point forward, leaving the rear much less protected by anti-missile tech.
dragontamer 5y ago
Its a cruiser. Which means the ship was loaded with anti-missile missiles, anti-missile RADAR, and anti-missile CIWS. The fact remains that the Ukrainians killed an anti-missile cruiser, with... a missile. That's impressive. Something horribly wrong has happened to the Russian anti-missile defense systems. That suggests that the Ukrainians know about a weakness to the Russian missile defense systems... a blindspot where the RADAR wouldn't pickup enemy missiles perhaps? In any case, maybe its not so surprising, Ukrainians built the ship after all.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  Apparently the ship’s armaments were vastly out of date. Its combat systems were from 90s and it had no modern anti-missile defences. Its offensive weaponry was more impressive, but even then it barely carried the radars to support them.
- speeder 5y ago
  I saw elsewhere that an upgrade was proposed but the budget for it was denied... I guess it is just a matter of reading the proposal, figure out what needed upgrading, and considering that to be the weakness you can exploit. An analogy would be finding out the castle you want to conquer was supposed to have a rear gate repaired but the repairs were postponed... it would be quite obvious to attack that rear gate.
- saynay 5y ago
  What I was hearing earlier is the old anti-missile RADAR that was in use on that ship was not capable of dealing with targets approaching from multiple sides at once, and so the Ukrainians flew a UAV on one side to effectively "distract" it, while the Neptunes struck it on the other side.
- RajT88 5y ago
  > That suggests that the Ukrainians know about a weakness to the Russian missile defense systems... a blindspot where the RADAR wouldn't pickup enemy missiles perhaps? In any case, maybe its not so surprising, Ukrainians built the ship after all. One of the weaknesses of missile defense systems, is they can only engage a small number of targets at a time. If you knew the Moskva could engage (say) 12 incoming missiles at a time, you fire 24 all at the same time. There was some articles on it a few years back, which of course I can't find now. It was regarding virtual wargames, where one commander handily won by, basically, firing everything all at once at the start of the game.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    > If you knew the Moskva could engage (say) 12 incoming missiles at a time, you fire 24 all at the same time. That's the sort of thing that's a classified secret. None of us know how many missiles the Moskva could handle. But the Ukrainians knew, and fired (at least) +1 missile over its capacity. Ukrainians are savvy, but they don't have enough missiles to really be throwing "eeeh, maybe 20 at the same time is enough??". Whatever battle plan they did here and implemented was surely based on their intelligence... stuff even USA wouldn't be privy to.

trhway 5y ago

>EDIT: It is quite possible that Ukrainians knew some kind of weakness to the ship that they exploited during the attack. not really. If they could they would hit the cruiser's anti-ship missiles - that would sent the ship immediately down instead of the whole fire/towing story. You just can't always hit that precisely from like 30 miles distance coming at transonic speed, and who knows what defense measures were activated by the ship. If anything, the weakness exploited here is the Russian poor state of combat readiness. The ship was mostly hanging around there for more than a month. All that time they were supposed to man the radars and keep CIWS/etc. combat ready - no way for Russian Navy. Maintaining combat readiness is a big issue even for shorter time frames - for example in 2008 while guarding the assault ships convoy on the way to Georgia "Moskva" was hit by the very brave and brazen unexpected night attack by Georgian small ships. Fortunately for "Moskva" back then the Georgians didn't have any weapons except small caliber artillery (it is really hard to imagine the courage of those Georgians to perform such an attack - just 4 small ships against that overwhelmingly large Russian Navy force. One of those Georgian ships was sunk by Russian anti-ship missile).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

fuoqi 5y ago

>The warship itself was a creation of the USSR, but has more to do with Ukraine's manufacturing prowess than present-day Russia. >The mighty warship was created by Ukraine The independent Ukraine with all its "manufacturing prowess" was unable to finish its sister ship Ukraina for 30 years. It got almost sold to Russia in 2010. >brought down by Ukrainian missiles With a tinsy bit of help from the NATO radars and surveillance drones.

jollybean 5y ago
If you don't have money or strategic reason to finish a ship, or arm it you don't finish it. Frankly, that kind of ship has no place in a Ukrainian fleet, so to spend billions on it would make no sense. Ukraine as a province of Russian Empire, for that Empire - yes. But not for Ukraine proper. That ship is designed to take on American fleet in Black Sea and elsewhere. Ukraine just needs to a small / fast Black Sea fleet and possibly a few micro subs etc..
- worik 5y ago
  > Ukraine just needs to a small / fast Black Sea fleet and possibly a few micro subs etc.. And a lot of missiles....

ctrlaltdelete95 5y ago

Please don’t call Ukraine Russia’s slavic brother. That’s how russians justify the war - “we are protecting our brothers from the nazis”. Ukraine is a sovereign nation. Let’s not perpetuate russian propaganda.

dragontamer 5y ago
I recognize its Russia's propaganda, but I enjoy corrupting their propaganda / words into other uses. There is truth in this matter: USSR was composed of many modern nations. This whole "Moskva ship sinks" thing is almost entirely Ukrainian, historically speaking. Ukrainian-built ship, brought down with Ukrainian missiles, with the Russians renaming the ship to Moskva to try to "steal" its way into history. I find this entire situation deliciously ironic for the Russians. It really shows how much of a paper-tiger they are, and how much Russia is trying to steal the USSR's name and history for themselves.
- _jal 5y ago
  > It really shows how much of a paper-tiger they are In a straight fight, it sure looks that way. But a weak, frightened and embarrassed authoritarian nuclear power is a very dangerous thing.

ivan_gammel 5y ago

> The warship itself was a creation of the USSR, but has more to do with Ukraine's manufacturing prowess than present-day Russia. It is indeed the product of USSR, which had integrated supply chain and R&D. Very likely some components of it were manufactured in Russia. Ukraine alone would not be able to build and maintain such ship due to budget and resource constraints, but Russia has rebuilt its capabilities in XXI century — their military industrial complex can maintain, upgrade and build such ships. I doubt though they will commission a replacement any time soon, since they are actively building lots of smaller vessels.