3 ms·

I don't want to discredit your experiences, because if they work, they work, but have you considered the possibility that you're achieving a placebo effect with

by ap22213 15y ago

I don't want to discredit your experiences, because if they work, they work, but have you considered the possibility that you're achieving a placebo effect with your supplements? In some studies, iirc, placebos have been shown to be as effective or more effective than SSRIs.

drzaiusapelord 15y ago
Of course, its impossible for me to run a proper experiment on myself with the study and control group of the same guy, but you are free to research the mood changing qualities of both tryptophan and vitamin D as well as fish oil on your own. Legitimate studies have found effect.
tokenadult 15y ago
In some studies, iirc, placebos have been shown to be as effective or more effective than SSRIs. You wrote, "if I remember correctly," so I'll mention here some sources I have checked recently for other Hacker News threads. In actual practice, placebos only look effective when the statistical tests in a study are poor, and most especially when the symptoms are self-reported by patients. Placebos are NOT effective in treating actual disease states or improving "hard endpoints" such as reduction of all-cause mortality or major morbidity from specific diseases with verifiable physiological signs. See http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effect-for-pain/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effect... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effects-revisited/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effect... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-placebo-effect/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-placebo-ef... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effects-without-deception-well-not-exactly/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effect... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/benedetti-on-placebos/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/benedetti-on-p... Placebo effects are strongest for patient self-reported subjective symptoms (classically, pain, but in more recent studies mood) and weakest for objective clinical signs measured by experienced observers. Hard endpoints to look at in the case of depression include preventing suicide and the patient returning to normal daily life function (such as full-time employment if that is appropriate for the patient's stage of life). Some hard endpoint studies indeed do not support some brands of SSRIs as well as they support cognitive-behavioral talk therapy for depression, but no properly designed study says that placebos are "effective" for any indication for SSRIs. Thanks for bringing up this issue, which is recurrent on HN, here.
- onemoreact 15y ago
  There is a huge range of placebo effectiveness. Placebo's that cause side effects work better than those that don't. Placebo's handed to you by people in lab coats work better than people in normal attire etc. Also, while placebo's have little effect on cancer or broken bones they do show significant and measurable effects with increased immune response, reduce pain, reduce signs of depression and a host of other things. PS: This get's really complected there is even evidence that many anti deprecation work on the side effect and only show up as better than 'placebo' when the placebo's have no side effects.

by ap22213 15y ago

drzaiusapelord 15y ago

Of course, its impossible for me to run a proper experiment on myself with the study and control group of the same guy, but you are free to research the mood changing qualities of both tryptophan and vitamin D as well as fish oil on your own. Legitimate studies have found effect.

tokenadult 15y ago

In some studies, iirc, placebos have been shown to be as effective or more effective than SSRIs. You wrote, "if I remember correctly," so I'll mention here some sources I have checked recently for other Hacker News threads. In actual practice, placebos only look effective when the statistical tests in a study are poor, and most especially when the symptoms are self-reported by patients. Placebos are NOT effective in treating actual disease states or improving "hard endpoints" such as reduction of all-cause mortality or major morbidity from specific diseases with verifiable physiological signs. See http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effect-for-pain/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effect... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effects-revisited/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effect... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-placebo-effect/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-placebo-ef... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effects-without-deception-well-not-exactly/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/placebo-effect... http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/benedetti-on-placebos/ http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/benedetti-on-p... Placebo effects are strongest for patient self-reported subjective symptoms (classically, pain, but in more recent studies mood) and weakest for objective clinical signs measured by experienced observers. Hard endpoints to look at in the case of depression include preventing suicide and the patient returning to normal daily life function (such as full-time employment if that is appropriate for the patient's stage of life). Some hard endpoint studies indeed do not support some brands of SSRIs as well as they support cognitive-behavioral talk therapy for depression, but no properly designed study says that placebos are "effective" for any indication for SSRIs. Thanks for bringing up this issue, which is recurrent on HN, here.

onemoreact 15y ago
There is a huge range of placebo effectiveness. Placebo's that cause side effects work better than those that don't. Placebo's handed to you by people in lab coats work better than people in normal attire etc. Also, while placebo's have little effect on cancer or broken bones they do show significant and measurable effects with increased immune response, reduce pain, reduce signs of depression and a host of other things. PS: This get's really complected there is even evidence that many anti deprecation work on the side effect and only show up as better than 'placebo' when the placebo's have no side effects.