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Just to add, Luddites weren't irrationally afraid of technology like is commonly believed. They destroyed machinery because they saw it being used to destroy ar

Just to add, Luddites weren't irrationally afraid of technology like is commonly believed. They destroyed machinery because they saw it being used to destroy artisanship and their livelihoods. Perhaps we'd be better off of there were more Luddites going from Web 1.0 to Web 2.0 or offshoring jobs, or military AI. Just as an example, I own furniture my parents bought in the 1960s when they were first married. It's still solid. My family has furniture from the 1800s that still is solid. The furniture I buy today I have to replace every 5 years and is complete garbage. Maybe we should stop considering being a Luddite as a pejorative and perhaps concede they might have been right about some industries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
> My family has furniture from the 1800s that still is solid. The furniture I buy today I have to replace every 5 years and is complete garbage. This is the perfect example of where this ideology fails. You can _still_ find furniture like those bought in the 1800s that stand the test of time. Cabinetmakers exist and would be happy to build nice furniture that will outlive both the cabinetmaker and yourself. In the age of the Web many of them advertise their services online. The reason most people don't buy furniture from a cabinetmaker is because their furniture is _expensive_. Make no mistake, furniture in the past was quite expensive as well. Families would save up to buy furniture and preserve it at all cost because of how expensive it was to get nice furniture. Wealthy families would have nice furniture passed down for generations while poorer families made do with their seconds and thirds. Moreover cabinetmakers in the past often relied on cheap stocks of solid wood. In the present, wood has become more scarce due to overforesting and environmental concerns. When you buy furniture made from MDF it uses an order of magnitude less wood than a solid piece of Oak or Poplar made in the 1800s or even plywood from the 1960s. This comes at the cost of worse load-bearing capabilities and brittle joints. The difference is that consumers now have the option for cheap, environmentally friendly furniture. If a consumer wants long lasting furniture, they could do what most cultures did in the past; save up for furniture over years and commission a cabinetmaker for their services. If you want furniture that lasts made of mostly solid wood and/or plywood, cabinetmakers would be overjoyed to work with you. Most consumers don't care enough about furniture to inflate the cost 10x for long lasting furniture. That's their choice as consumers.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  > Moreover cabinetmakers in the past often relied on cheap stocks of solid wood. A luthier I met in Berlin had a large stock of wood in their workshop. I asked him what it was for, and he said "oh, that's my supply for the next 10 years, I add to it every year to keep it about the same size". Granted, luthiers use less wood than a cabinet maker.
- jjav 5y ago
  > You can _still_ find furniture like those bought in the 1800s that stand the test of time. You mostly can't. I always wanted quality wood furniture and once I had enough income I went shopping. Nothing. It can't be bought anywhere that I can find. Eventually gave up and bought the nicest office furniture I could find but it is still a very nice veneer over junk plywood. And even that was many thousands of dollars because it is a nice veneer instead of a cheap junk veneer. > Make no mistake, furniture in the past was quite expensive as well. Not really. Both my grandparent families were dirt poor small farmers and the furniture they had was orders of magnitude better quality than anything I can find or buy on a 2020s silicon valley tech salary.
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    I'll be honest I have no idea where you're looking. If you're looking at retail furniture stores in the US, then no you're not going to find it, unless you go far upmarket. But hop onto any woodworking forum/subreddit (well not r/woodworking as that's mostly beginners) and you'll find cabinetmakers willing to work with you for pieces. Few retail furniture outlets have a customer base willing to pay the prices needed for cabinetry, though I presume on a Silicon Valley tech salary you should be fine. Alternatively, reach out to an interior designer in your area who probably has contacts with many small cabinetry shops in the area. I'd link a few cabinetmakers I know of but I'd rather not call them out in a public forum. Patreon is going to have some also. Reddit's r/finishing has some experienced cabinetmakers. Another strategy is to go to a used furniture store, pick up an old piece made of solid wood/plywood, and ask a cabinetmaker to restore it, the same as furniture used to be passed down. If you're in the Bay Area I'll recommend Urban Ore as a good, cheap place to find used furniture. There are antique stores galore which restore old furniture and sell them for large amounts of money. In the past, the capability to build cheap furniture just wasn't there so everything you bought was made from solid wood and was hand-joined which is why your grandparents' family's furniture seems so much stronger. The market also had a floor on how cheap it could get before mechanization and the invention of composite materials so it was "easy" to find expensive furniture and "hard" to find cheap furniture. FYI plywood can make furniture that outlasts individuals and has been in use in furniture since the early 1900s. When you're thinking of crappy veneered engineered wood, you're probably thinking of MDF and OSB furniture. Most furniture at retail furniture stores are majority MDF and OSB because of cost and largely weight as both plywood and solid wood tend to be very heavy for their load bearing capabilities.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago

> My family has furniture from the 1800s that still is solid. The furniture I buy today I have to replace every 5 years and is complete garbage. This is the perfect example of where this ideology fails. You can _still_ find furniture like those bought in the 1800s that stand the test of time. Cabinetmakers exist and would be happy to build nice furniture that will outlive both the cabinetmaker and yourself. In the age of the Web many of them advertise their services online. The reason most people don't buy furniture from a cabinetmaker is because their furniture is _expensive_. Make no mistake, furniture in the past was quite expensive as well. Families would save up to buy furniture and preserve it at all cost because of how expensive it was to get nice furniture. Wealthy families would have nice furniture passed down for generations while poorer families made do with their seconds and thirds. Moreover cabinetmakers in the past often relied on cheap stocks of solid wood. In the present, wood has become more scarce due to overforesting and environmental concerns. When you buy furniture made from MDF it uses an order of magnitude less wood than a solid piece of Oak or Poplar made in the 1800s or even plywood from the 1960s. This comes at the cost of worse load-bearing capabilities and brittle joints. The difference is that consumers now have the option for cheap, environmentally friendly furniture. If a consumer wants long lasting furniture, they could do what most cultures did in the past; save up for furniture over years and commission a cabinetmaker for their services. If you want furniture that lasts made of mostly solid wood and/or plywood, cabinetmakers would be overjoyed to work with you. Most consumers don't care enough about furniture to inflate the cost 10x for long lasting furniture. That's their choice as consumers.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
> Moreover cabinetmakers in the past often relied on cheap stocks of solid wood. A luthier I met in Berlin had a large stock of wood in their workshop. I asked him what it was for, and he said "oh, that's my supply for the next 10 years, I add to it every year to keep it about the same size". Granted, luthiers use less wood than a cabinet maker.
jjav 5y ago
> You can _still_ find furniture like those bought in the 1800s that stand the test of time. You mostly can't. I always wanted quality wood furniture and once I had enough income I went shopping. Nothing. It can't be bought anywhere that I can find. Eventually gave up and bought the nicest office furniture I could find but it is still a very nice veneer over junk plywood. And even that was many thousands of dollars because it is a nice veneer instead of a cheap junk veneer. > Make no mistake, furniture in the past was quite expensive as well. Not really. Both my grandparent families were dirt poor small farmers and the furniture they had was orders of magnitude better quality than anything I can find or buy on a 2020s silicon valley tech salary.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  I'll be honest I have no idea where you're looking. If you're looking at retail furniture stores in the US, then no you're not going to find it, unless you go far upmarket. But hop onto any woodworking forum/subreddit (well not r/woodworking as that's mostly beginners) and you'll find cabinetmakers willing to work with you for pieces. Few retail furniture outlets have a customer base willing to pay the prices needed for cabinetry, though I presume on a Silicon Valley tech salary you should be fine. Alternatively, reach out to an interior designer in your area who probably has contacts with many small cabinetry shops in the area. I'd link a few cabinetmakers I know of but I'd rather not call them out in a public forum. Patreon is going to have some also. Reddit's r/finishing has some experienced cabinetmakers. Another strategy is to go to a used furniture store, pick up an old piece made of solid wood/plywood, and ask a cabinetmaker to restore it, the same as furniture used to be passed down. If you're in the Bay Area I'll recommend Urban Ore as a good, cheap place to find used furniture. There are antique stores galore which restore old furniture and sell them for large amounts of money. In the past, the capability to build cheap furniture just wasn't there so everything you bought was made from solid wood and was hand-joined which is why your grandparents' family's furniture seems so much stronger. The market also had a floor on how cheap it could get before mechanization and the invention of composite materials so it was "easy" to find expensive furniture and "hard" to find cheap furniture. FYI plywood can make furniture that outlasts individuals and has been in use in furniture since the early 1900s. When you're thinking of crappy veneered engineered wood, you're probably thinking of MDF and OSB furniture. Most furniture at retail furniture stores are majority MDF and OSB because of cost and largely weight as both plywood and solid wood tend to be very heavy for their load bearing capabilities.