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>Do not fall for "let's hear both sides" whataboutism. Your comment is spot on, but this is strange. It is complex; there are two sides. The ideals of "Weste

>Do not fall for "let's hear both sides" whataboutism. Your comment is spot on, but this is strange. It is complex; there are two sides. The ideals of "Western civilization" aren't held by the globe, so it's important to understand why things work the way they do. It isn't "good" versus "evil".

salawat 5y ago
Nah. There is one side. Two collectives competing over influence and sovereignty. The West, advocating for everyone has their lines and we're good, and Russia now going imperialist/expansionist. NAP. Don't start nothing, won't be nothing. Russia started something. There is now something. Failure to respond and restore the equilibrium is tacit acceptance of Russia setting terms, which sets a precedent. It's pretty clear.
- futureshock 5y ago
  Though to be fair, the West 's position is everyone has their lines but plays by our rules. The western governments put huge pressure on the rest of the world to conform their laws and norms to be beneficial to the globalized world order they themselves invented. This world order includes good things like human rights and rule of law, but also questionable things like the deck being heavily stacked in favor of the incumbents and winner takes all hypercapitalism.
fhood 5y ago
Watching the actions of the Russian and Chinese governments over the past few months I think the issue has gotten much more black and white than these things usually are. Not necessarily good vs evil, as that is too subjective, but definitely somewhat of an ideological standoff between truth and...not truth.
- futureshock 5y ago
  I am absolutely on the side of the Ukraine and the West, but that is too simple. We are also post-truth. I think we are much closer to the real truth than Russia state media, but the president calling Ukraine a genocide is inventing a new definition for the term.
  - ramesh31 5y ago
    >The president calling Ukraine a genocide is inventing a new definition for the term. How many more bodies do the mass graves need to qualify as genocide?
    - futureshock 5y ago
      Genocide: Noun. The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group "a campaign of genocide" By that definition I would say quite a few more mass graves, along with a coordinated effort to stamp out Ukrainian language, customs, intelligentsia, and identity. I understand that Russian state media calls Ukraine "one people" with Russians, but it's a far way to go between a talking point and indiscriminately killing civilians as part of a brutal war and genocide. It's pretty obvious that word is being said for political reasons, not because the current situation obviously meets the definition. I am absolutely horrified by Russia's war, but I reserve the right to be vastly more horrified if they begin an organized campaign to exterminate the Ukrainian people.

salawat 5y ago

Nah. There is one side. Two collectives competing over influence and sovereignty. The West, advocating for everyone has their lines and we're good, and Russia now going imperialist/expansionist. NAP. Don't start nothing, won't be nothing. Russia started something. There is now something. Failure to respond and restore the equilibrium is tacit acceptance of Russia setting terms, which sets a precedent. It's pretty clear.

futureshock 5y ago
Though to be fair, the West 's position is everyone has their lines but plays by our rules. The western governments put huge pressure on the rest of the world to conform their laws and norms to be beneficial to the globalized world order they themselves invented. This world order includes good things like human rights and rule of law, but also questionable things like the deck being heavily stacked in favor of the incumbents and winner takes all hypercapitalism.

fhood 5y ago

Watching the actions of the Russian and Chinese governments over the past few months I think the issue has gotten much more black and white than these things usually are. Not necessarily good vs evil, as that is too subjective, but definitely somewhat of an ideological standoff between truth and...not truth.

futureshock 5y ago
I am absolutely on the side of the Ukraine and the West, but that is too simple. We are also post-truth. I think we are much closer to the real truth than Russia state media, but the president calling Ukraine a genocide is inventing a new definition for the term.
- ramesh31 5y ago
  >The president calling Ukraine a genocide is inventing a new definition for the term. How many more bodies do the mass graves need to qualify as genocide?
  - futureshock 5y ago
    Genocide: Noun. The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group "a campaign of genocide" By that definition I would say quite a few more mass graves, along with a coordinated effort to stamp out Ukrainian language, customs, intelligentsia, and identity. I understand that Russian state media calls Ukraine "one people" with Russians, but it's a far way to go between a talking point and indiscriminately killing civilians as part of a brutal war and genocide. It's pretty obvious that word is being said for political reasons, not because the current situation obviously meets the definition. I am absolutely horrified by Russia's war, but I reserve the right to be vastly more horrified if they begin an organized campaign to exterminate the Ukrainian people.