3 ms·

This is a very condescending view of Young Americans. I think any analysis that does not start with an economic analysis of Americans today vs Americans 40 year

This is a very condescending view of Young Americans. I think any analysis that does not start with an economic analysis of Americans today vs Americans 40 years ago is bound to end up on these soft attributes of "ideals and generosity". It's abundantly clear for any Young American, that there is no upside to war. If American maintains her dominance, then they are still suffering under a gerontocracy and growing wealth inequality. What person would risk nuclear war for the privilege to struggle to pay rent every month? Likewise, the risk of a Sino-Russian alliance only effects those who stand to extract rent from "democratic" countries (in the form of foreign ownership). If capital is increasingly owned by a small few, why should Young Americans care if their oligarchs are American or Chinese? I think most Young Americans don't have the luxury of wondering about power competition especially since so many of them don't have a stake in the game. It's hard to convince people the effects of what Russian oil dominance will have where they deal with much more pressing survival issues that are a lot closer to them.

howmayiannoyyou 5y ago
> If capital is increasingly owned by a small few, why should Young Americans care if their oligarchs are American or Chinese? Here's why: - Rule of law, including health, safety & environment. - Minority rights. - Free-ish speech. - Mostly equal application of law. Could say more, but you get the point.
- pueblito 5y ago
  Does China have those things? Because America certainly doesnt
- nemothekid 5y ago
  I really don't understand this response. Are you seriously implying that today most young Americans have an healthy environment? At least China is pretending to roll out some sort of universal health coverage. Minority rights? Let's ignore our own highly politicized conversations on minority rights and look to our allies, like Israel. I'm not sure I see too much a difference of the genocide of the Uighurs in China and the genocide of the Palestinians. So no, I don't get the point. The bullet points you have posted are shaky at best and don't convince me that anyone should risk nuclear war for "ideas" like "free-ish speech". I'm not implying China is perfect; or that America is wholly evil. It's that you must consider the day-to-day implications for _most_ Americans (who are probably unlike you and don't make six figures working in tech or own any capital), and that the system doesn't provide any material returns to them; and therefore any "change in leadership" is likely immaterial. Risking nuclear war, and billions of tax dollars for such a war does not make sense, especially when it makes life harder at home.
  - howmayiannoyyou 5y ago
    If you live in America and this is what you believe you really need to live elsewhere for awhile. I recommend living in Fushun, China and getting to know universal healthcare there. It's close to the North Korean border where you can explore China's close ally. When you get there let me know how many Uighurs serve in the National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party as compared to how many non-Jews serve in the Israeli Knesset. For extra credit rank for world genocide and let's see where Palestinian so-called 'genocide' falls.
    - nemothekid 5y ago
      So now we have gone from "rule of law" to "we don't do as much genocide as the other guys".
    - pasabagi 5y ago
      I think in general, western democracies do a lot better on elite freedoms than China, or indeed eastern democracies. When it comes to the actual freedom enjoyed by normal people, it's more patchy. Living in contemporary America, or indeed any fast-paced, high-bill liberal democracy, is essentially a lot of work for most people: usually the vast majority of their waking time is spent at one or more jobs. This usually delivers no real security, they usually have no real control over what they do, to a very fine level (acceptable emotions to display, and so on) during this time. China is like that too, but the only people that would really experience a night-and-day difference are the elite, who coincidentally write all the academic papers, news articles, etc.
  - throw__away7391 5y ago
    People think they're being "enlightened" for holding such views, being able to hold up the magnifying glass to their own society...but it's far more likely that they just live in a bubble. It appears as something of an irony that these very same free societies they criticize not only permit but actually _encourage_ this kind of self reflection through their traditions and institutions. I think that to truly appreciate life in a western democracy you need to have some real exposure to the alternative/absence. As I've travelled more, gained life experience, I've become less and less impressed with the ACT of expressing such criticism (particularly the knee-jerk reflexive "whataboutism" sort so frequently launched in response to any criticism of authoritatian regimes) and more appreciative of the fact that it's freely allowed and part of the culture of the free world.
- Gollapalli 5y ago
  >rule of law We don't have that NOW. >minority rights I'm sorry, but the BLM riots in 2015 have made me immediately suspicious of anyone towing this line. I just don't trust you. >Free-ish speech We just banned Russia Today (not to mention all the issues with alt-platforms getting dehosted)... oh yeah and the Babylon Bee. > Mostly equal application of law. See pt. 1
- mistrial9 5y ago
  this response IMO cherry-picks a single line, which is easily setup with an "appeal to USA flag-waving nationalism" rebuttal. Clearly capped off with a "love it or leave it" literally.. not intellectually honest in addressing the real point here, which is perhaps "young people have serious daily life and future adult life" problems which have nothing to do with Great-Powers, Great-Games manipulation. Similar discussions could have been had for three millenia of nationalistic warfare, and I side firmly with the parent post myself, empathy towards the young adults in the USA, not flag-waving "you people need to honor the flag that gave you all of THIS" type stuff
- BeFlatXIII 5y ago
  Those are all also things that the oligarchs of the enemy can promise to do better on (and perhaps even actually deliver) to buy off Americans away from loyalty to their hometown billionaires.
fallingknife 5y ago
> I think most Young Americans don't have the luxury of wondering about power competition Precisely the opposite. Americans have the luxury of not worrying about great power competition. Eastern Europeans, for example, do not have this luxury. You think that great power competition does not affect you, but you are very wrong about that. You just think so because you are a citizen of the most powerful great power.
Clubber 5y ago
>It's abundantly clear for any Young American, that there is no upside to war. I would argue there is plenty of upside to war, otherwise countries wouldn't wage it. Compare the US economy in 1939 vs 1949 for a clear example.
- nemothekid 5y ago
  That had far more to do with Europe being destroyed and creating a dependence on American resources. It's not as clear cut for America pre and post the Vietnam war, or the Gulf war or War in Afghanistan.

howmayiannoyyou 5y ago

> If capital is increasingly owned by a small few, why should Young Americans care if their oligarchs are American or Chinese? Here's why: - Rule of law, including health, safety & environment. - Minority rights. - Free-ish speech. - Mostly equal application of law. Could say more, but you get the point.

pueblito 5y ago
Does China have those things? Because America certainly doesnt
nemothekid 5y ago
I really don't understand this response. Are you seriously implying that today most young Americans have an healthy environment? At least China is pretending to roll out some sort of universal health coverage. Minority rights? Let's ignore our own highly politicized conversations on minority rights and look to our allies, like Israel. I'm not sure I see too much a difference of the genocide of the Uighurs in China and the genocide of the Palestinians. So no, I don't get the point. The bullet points you have posted are shaky at best and don't convince me that anyone should risk nuclear war for "ideas" like "free-ish speech". I'm not implying China is perfect; or that America is wholly evil. It's that you must consider the day-to-day implications for _most_ Americans (who are probably unlike you and don't make six figures working in tech or own any capital), and that the system doesn't provide any material returns to them; and therefore any "change in leadership" is likely immaterial. Risking nuclear war, and billions of tax dollars for such a war does not make sense, especially when it makes life harder at home.
- howmayiannoyyou 5y ago
  If you live in America and this is what you believe you really need to live elsewhere for awhile. I recommend living in Fushun, China and getting to know universal healthcare there. It's close to the North Korean border where you can explore China's close ally. When you get there let me know how many Uighurs serve in the National Congress of the Chinese Communist Party as compared to how many non-Jews serve in the Israeli Knesset. For extra credit rank for world genocide and let's see where Palestinian so-called 'genocide' falls.
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    So now we have gone from "rule of law" to "we don't do as much genocide as the other guys".
  - pasabagi 5y ago
    I think in general, western democracies do a lot better on elite freedoms than China, or indeed eastern democracies. When it comes to the actual freedom enjoyed by normal people, it's more patchy. Living in contemporary America, or indeed any fast-paced, high-bill liberal democracy, is essentially a lot of work for most people: usually the vast majority of their waking time is spent at one or more jobs. This usually delivers no real security, they usually have no real control over what they do, to a very fine level (acceptable emotions to display, and so on) during this time. China is like that too, but the only people that would really experience a night-and-day difference are the elite, who coincidentally write all the academic papers, news articles, etc.
- throw__away7391 5y ago
  People think they're being "enlightened" for holding such views, being able to hold up the magnifying glass to their own society...but it's far more likely that they just live in a bubble. It appears as something of an irony that these very same free societies they criticize not only permit but actually _encourage_ this kind of self reflection through their traditions and institutions. I think that to truly appreciate life in a western democracy you need to have some real exposure to the alternative/absence. As I've travelled more, gained life experience, I've become less and less impressed with the ACT of expressing such criticism (particularly the knee-jerk reflexive "whataboutism" sort so frequently launched in response to any criticism of authoritatian regimes) and more appreciative of the fact that it's freely allowed and part of the culture of the free world.
Gollapalli 5y ago
>rule of law We don't have that NOW. >minority rights I'm sorry, but the BLM riots in 2015 have made me immediately suspicious of anyone towing this line. I just don't trust you. >Free-ish speech We just banned Russia Today (not to mention all the issues with alt-platforms getting dehosted)... oh yeah and the Babylon Bee. > Mostly equal application of law. See pt. 1
mistrial9 5y ago
this response IMO cherry-picks a single line, which is easily setup with an "appeal to USA flag-waving nationalism" rebuttal. Clearly capped off with a "love it or leave it" literally.. not intellectually honest in addressing the real point here, which is perhaps "young people have serious daily life and future adult life" problems which have nothing to do with Great-Powers, Great-Games manipulation. Similar discussions could have been had for three millenia of nationalistic warfare, and I side firmly with the parent post myself, empathy towards the young adults in the USA, not flag-waving "you people need to honor the flag that gave you all of THIS" type stuff
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
Those are all also things that the oligarchs of the enemy can promise to do better on (and perhaps even actually deliver) to buy off Americans away from loyalty to their hometown billionaires.

fallingknife 5y ago

> I think most Young Americans don't have the luxury of wondering about power competition Precisely the opposite. Americans have the luxury of not worrying about great power competition. Eastern Europeans, for example, do not have this luxury. You think that great power competition does not affect you, but you are very wrong about that. You just think so because you are a citizen of the most powerful great power.

Clubber 5y ago

>It's abundantly clear for any Young American, that there is no upside to war. I would argue there is plenty of upside to war, otherwise countries wouldn't wage it. Compare the US economy in 1939 vs 1949 for a clear example.

nemothekid 5y ago
That had far more to do with Europe being destroyed and creating a dependence on American resources. It's not as clear cut for America pre and post the Vietnam war, or the Gulf war or War in Afghanistan.