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I think this is an extremely ungenerous take. I think more objectively young Americans simply have different ideological preferences than older Americans. The

I think this is an extremely ungenerous take. I think more objectively young Americans simply have different ideological preferences than older Americans. The cold war mentality, talk of "free and open" societies is in itself deeply ideological, not "facing reality head on". It's the wish to remake or maintain the world in America's image. If anything I think young Americans are the less ideological group here. They see America's domestic issues, international overreach, they have less of a preference for liberalism in the broad sense of the term, and they demand a foreign policy that is more focused on America's domestic interests in the face of a changing, more multipolar world. the general opinion of younger Americans seems much more aligned with realist schools of foreign policy than with the moralistic, idealistic mentality of older generations.

creato 5y ago
Realist as determined by some social media bubble, some of which are engineered by foreign intelligence agencies, sure.
- peppustimbus 5y ago
- _gkwp 5y ago
  Which intelligence agencies do you think have the most control of the Twitter discourse?
kurthr 5y ago
There are levels of grey to open (e.g. free speech, expression, democracy) vs closed (e.g. prison for political speech, totalitarianism), but the US and EU are a world apart from Russia or China. I recommend speaking to someone (who isn't state sponsored as many Tiktok & Youtube influencers are) from that country to understand. Do not think that you will not be shot by a conscripted soldier who wants your stuff to take back to his impoverished family or that if you are it will make the world a better more "equal" place. Many Russians are afraid of the return of soldiers from this war (special operation?), because each time before it has led to more violence. Having your pronoun misused by a teacher in school isn't right, but it is fundamentally different type of oppression from working in a prison camp in Siberia or Xinjiang.
- _gkwp 5y ago
  My understanding is that--according to Western sources--Chinese people report high satisfaction with their government, much higher than US citizens. I feel that this metric should also be considered when evaluating the quality of life in a society. As for the point on Xinjiang, I think the oppression of people there is real, but oppression of religious minorities isn't just a non-Western phenomenon; look at France, for example. Consider the source of your information about other societies. The elites of Western society, who have a great interest in preserving Western societies as they are and who hold a lot of control of the media, want to align the populous against the enemies of the Western elites. The flaws of enemy countries will therefore tend to be exaggerated, sometimes highly so. Western societies will tend to be portrayed as the best anyone can hope for.
  - kurthr 5y ago
    I've traveled to China for two decades. There is both great prosperity and astounding poverty there ($300=2000Yuan/year is defined as poverty). Whatever you may see on TV there is plenty of homelessness even in Shanghai/Beijing/Shenzhen (for many who lack an appropriate identity card) and also much greater destitution in the outlying regions. There is no free medical care. Of course "people report" high satisfaction with a government that can and does throw them in jail for disagreeing. That visibly happens even in independent Hong Kong. Be careful what "Western sources" are actually propaganda outlets. It is amazing what large monetary donations to journalism and research universities can buy in the US, EU, and Australia, but there is plenty of other documentation. That you compare "religious suppression" (reeducation prison camps with forced labor and sterilization) in Xinjiang to not wearing a hijab in France is quite frankly shocking. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-bir... https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
    - _gkwp 5y ago
      You shouldn't just evaluate governments based on reported approval, but approval does mean something. I don't think you have provided sufficient evidence to be able to dismiss the data. I don't think my comparison to France is as shocking as you claim, but perhaps a better comparison would be Canada's treatment of indigenous people. I thought this video on the topic of Xinjiang was pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz9ICFDk8Js https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz9ICFDk8Js Edit: About France, here's an article on the topic I was referring to: <https://theintercept.com/2019/02/23/france-islamophobia-islam-french-muslims-terrorism/ https://theintercept.com/2019/02/23/france-islamophobia-isla...>. A quote: "[France] has become a 'laboratory' for discriminatory laws targeting minorities, particularly Muslims."
randcraw 5y ago
This is a matter of ideology? You're saying the principles of young people in the US say it's OK to invade another country that did not attack first? Or because they found some news sources saying Putin is justified? I guess I just don't see any sense in that argument. Do kids today not think for themselves? Have they no principles of their own? Wow. Today is definitely the right time to reinstate the US military draft. If nothing else, the prospect of yourself dying in the mud of a distant foreign land should motivate US kids to finally give a damn about power-crazed politicians killing multitudes of human beings for... whatever platitude manages to get a million retweets.

creato 5y ago

Realist as determined by some social media bubble, some of which are engineered by foreign intelligence agencies, sure.

peppustimbus 5y ago
_gkwp 5y ago
Which intelligence agencies do you think have the most control of the Twitter discourse?

kurthr 5y ago

There are levels of grey to open (e.g. free speech, expression, democracy) vs closed (e.g. prison for political speech, totalitarianism), but the US and EU are a world apart from Russia or China. I recommend speaking to someone (who isn't state sponsored as many Tiktok & Youtube influencers are) from that country to understand. Do not think that you will not be shot by a conscripted soldier who wants your stuff to take back to his impoverished family or that if you are it will make the world a better more "equal" place. Many Russians are afraid of the return of soldiers from this war (special operation?), because each time before it has led to more violence. Having your pronoun misused by a teacher in school isn't right, but it is fundamentally different type of oppression from working in a prison camp in Siberia or Xinjiang.

_gkwp 5y ago
My understanding is that--according to Western sources--Chinese people report high satisfaction with their government, much higher than US citizens. I feel that this metric should also be considered when evaluating the quality of life in a society. As for the point on Xinjiang, I think the oppression of people there is real, but oppression of religious minorities isn't just a non-Western phenomenon; look at France, for example. Consider the source of your information about other societies. The elites of Western society, who have a great interest in preserving Western societies as they are and who hold a lot of control of the media, want to align the populous against the enemies of the Western elites. The flaws of enemy countries will therefore tend to be exaggerated, sometimes highly so. Western societies will tend to be portrayed as the best anyone can hope for.
- kurthr 5y ago
  I've traveled to China for two decades. There is both great prosperity and astounding poverty there ($300=2000Yuan/year is defined as poverty). Whatever you may see on TV there is plenty of homelessness even in Shanghai/Beijing/Shenzhen (for many who lack an appropriate identity card) and also much greater destitution in the outlying regions. There is no free medical care. Of course "people report" high satisfaction with a government that can and does throw them in jail for disagreeing. That visibly happens even in independent Hong Kong. Be careful what "Western sources" are actually propaganda outlets. It is amazing what large monetary donations to journalism and research universities can buy in the US, EU, and Australia, but there is plenty of other documentation. That you compare "religious suppression" (reeducation prison camps with forced labor and sterilization) in Xinjiang to not wearing a hijab in France is quite frankly shocking. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-bir... https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...
  - _gkwp 5y ago
    You shouldn't just evaluate governments based on reported approval, but approval does mean something. I don't think you have provided sufficient evidence to be able to dismiss the data. I don't think my comparison to France is as shocking as you claim, but perhaps a better comparison would be Canada's treatment of indigenous people. I thought this video on the topic of Xinjiang was pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz9ICFDk8Js https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz9ICFDk8Js Edit: About France, here's an article on the topic I was referring to: <https://theintercept.com/2019/02/23/france-islamophobia-islam-french-muslims-terrorism/ https://theintercept.com/2019/02/23/france-islamophobia-isla...>. A quote: "[France] has become a 'laboratory' for discriminatory laws targeting minorities, particularly Muslims."

randcraw 5y ago

This is a matter of ideology? You're saying the principles of young people in the US say it's OK to invade another country that did not attack first? Or because they found some news sources saying Putin is justified? I guess I just don't see any sense in that argument. Do kids today not think for themselves? Have they no principles of their own? Wow. Today is definitely the right time to reinstate the US military draft. If nothing else, the prospect of yourself dying in the mud of a distant foreign land should motivate US kids to finally give a damn about power-crazed politicians killing multitudes of human beings for... whatever platitude manages to get a million retweets.