5 ms·

China doesn't have rule of law. This is like termites proposing a new structure for wooden home construction.

by civilized 5y ago

trasz 5y ago
- civilized 5y ago
  In the USA we have due process rights so that the government can't just randomly disappear people for months [1] or forever [2]. Unfortunately some guilty people go free when the government fails to prosecute in respect of these rights, but it is the price we pay so that the rulers can't just suppress their crimes and destroy anyone they dislike. In China you can be the son of a powerful official, kill someone with your car in front of everyone, scream “Go ahead and sue me, my father is Li Gang!”, and the government will indeed go to work to suppress witnesses to your misdeeds, even though the incident is already a viral meme on social media [3a]. But I guess you can give them credit for finally charging this kid who murdered someone with his car... 3 months after the fact. [3b] But make sure not to compare Xi to Pooh-Bear, your future will not be bright! [4] [1] https://www.thecut.com/2022/02/the-disappearance-of-peng-shuai-what-we-know.html https://www.thecut.com/2022/02/the-disappearance-of-peng-shu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforced_disappearance#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforced_disappearance#China [3a] https://globalvoices.org/2010/10/22/china-my-father-is-li-gang/ https://globalvoices.org/2010/10/22/china-my-father-is-li-ga... [3b] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Gang_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Gang_incident [4] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-winnie-the-pooh-film-to-stop-comparisons-to-president-xi https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-win...
  - culi 5y ago
    Anybody who's ever worked with houseless folks will laugh at the idea that cops can't just pick people up and hold them without any repercussions. In the US you need to be of the right social standing to actually be afforded those "rights". Due process has always been a myth in US history for people who aren't of a certain privileged status. For example, the whole concept of "citizen's arrest" was created in order to let non-cop white people detain black people https://www.jstor.org/stable/26380304 https://www.jstor.org/stable/26380304
    - civilized 5y ago
      Unfortunately the most marginalized people in any society are often treated badly. That's different from a society like China's, where anyone can be disappeared for any amount of time with impunity if they offend a powerful person. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-drives-high-profile-disappearances-in-china https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-drives-high-profile-... If you're upset about what was happening in the US during the 1950s, definitely don't learn anything about what was happening in China at that time. Mao, Stalin, and Hitler are all vying in Hell for the title of Most Lethal Human Being Ever.
      - trasz 5y ago
        And you don't find it strange that you trust US media outlets more than you trust Peng Shuai herself?
        civilized 5y ago
        Yes, Peng Shuai came out to say she was fine, with no explanation for the months of disappearance. She recanted her allegations, again with no detail or explanation as to why she made them against a prominent party official or how exactly her plain words were supposedly misunderstood. Only a child or a 50-center would assume that these things happened without threat or coercion. And she is only the latest in a long list of disappearances of CCP persona non grata, as documented in the links I previously provided.
        trasz 5y ago
        “Only a child or a 50-center would assume that” someone might disappear from the foreign social media for a few weeks without oppressive regime forcing them to? Do you realise how ridiculous you sound? As for "CCP full of angels" - of course not. I'm just not indoctrinated enough to believe US is any better. There's one fundamental difference though: China is improving.
        civilized 5y ago
  - trasz 5y ago
    Here is how being wealthy works in US: https://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/02/justice/delaware-du-pont-rape-case/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/02/justice/delaware-du-pont-... There is a difference though: in China this is changing. As for the Winnie the Pooh urban legend: I guess you never asked yourself how is it possible that Shanghai Disneyland still features Winnie :-)
    - civilized 5y ago
      No, the difference is that in America, the news media report on these things which are horrible and embarrassing to our country, so that the people can know and fight to improve things. In China, everything embarrassing to the CCP is instantly censored to present a sanitized reality where all behavior displeasing to the CCP does not exist. Just like how most Russians think Russia is liberating Ukraine in a "special military operation" and the indiscriminately massacring of civilians is airbrushed away. Only criminals censor the media.
      - trasz 5y ago
        >No, the difference is that in America, the news media report on these things which are horrible and embarrassing to our country And nothing changes. Convinced child rapist was let free because he was wealthy and “wouldn’t feel good in prison”. Do you think this was followed by some reform to make sure it doesn’t happen again? >In China, everything embarrassing to the CCP is instantly censored This is obviously false. Talk to someone from China perhaps, or take a look at their media? >Only criminals censor the media. Have you ever heard about gag orders?
- ebruchez 5y ago
  > USA doesn’t have rule of law Total nonsense. The US doesn't have perfect rule of law but then nothing is ever perfect. Failures like the ones you are presenting have been widely reported, are largely controversial, and nobody who has criticized those arguably undesirable outcomes has been silenced or disappeared by the US government. I would a thousand times rather be indicted in the US or most European countries than in China or in Russia where the arbitrary and corruption of the judicial system reign.
  - trasz 5y ago
    >Total nonsense. The US doesn't have perfect rule of law but then nothing is ever perfect. So how is it different from China again? As for being indicted - please check out statistics of how many people in American prisons were sentenced without proving them guilty. The fundamental difference between legal systems in US and China is that the American system is faulty by design, ie its flaws are not considered flaws. Same way politician's corruption is considered normal.
    - ebruchez 5y ago
      > how is it different from China again It's a matter of degree. Not everything is black or white. Things can be better or they can be worse. Since there is no way to just argue one's way out of it, I'll just point you to the ranking established by the World Justice Project [1] in this document [2]. Overall ranking (lower is better): - United States: ranking 27 - China: ranking 98 - Russian Federation: ranking 101 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Justice_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Justice_Project [2] https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/documents/WJP-INDEX-21.pdf https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/document...
      - trasz 5y ago
        What would you say if I quoted a similar index released by Beijing (as opposed to Washington) that shows opposite score?

China doesn't have rule of law. This is like termites proposing a new structure for wooden home construction.

trasz 5y ago

civilized 5y ago
In the USA we have due process rights so that the government can't just randomly disappear people for months [1] or forever [2]. Unfortunately some guilty people go free when the government fails to prosecute in respect of these rights, but it is the price we pay so that the rulers can't just suppress their crimes and destroy anyone they dislike. In China you can be the son of a powerful official, kill someone with your car in front of everyone, scream “Go ahead and sue me, my father is Li Gang!”, and the government will indeed go to work to suppress witnesses to your misdeeds, even though the incident is already a viral meme on social media [3a]. But I guess you can give them credit for finally charging this kid who murdered someone with his car... 3 months after the fact. [3b] But make sure not to compare Xi to Pooh-Bear, your future will not be bright! [4] [1] https://www.thecut.com/2022/02/the-disappearance-of-peng-shuai-what-we-know.html https://www.thecut.com/2022/02/the-disappearance-of-peng-shu... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforced_disappearance#China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforced_disappearance#China [3a] https://globalvoices.org/2010/10/22/china-my-father-is-li-gang/ https://globalvoices.org/2010/10/22/china-my-father-is-li-ga... [3b] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Gang_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Gang_incident [4] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-winnie-the-pooh-film-to-stop-comparisons-to-president-xi https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/07/china-bans-win...
- culi 5y ago
  Anybody who's ever worked with houseless folks will laugh at the idea that cops can't just pick people up and hold them without any repercussions. In the US you need to be of the right social standing to actually be afforded those "rights". Due process has always been a myth in US history for people who aren't of a certain privileged status. For example, the whole concept of "citizen's arrest" was created in order to let non-cop white people detain black people https://www.jstor.org/stable/26380304 https://www.jstor.org/stable/26380304
  - civilized 5y ago
    Unfortunately the most marginalized people in any society are often treated badly. That's different from a society like China's, where anyone can be disappeared for any amount of time with impunity if they offend a powerful person. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-drives-high-profile-disappearances-in-china https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/what-drives-high-profile-... If you're upset about what was happening in the US during the 1950s, definitely don't learn anything about what was happening in China at that time. Mao, Stalin, and Hitler are all vying in Hell for the title of Most Lethal Human Being Ever.
    - trasz 5y ago
      And you don't find it strange that you trust US media outlets more than you trust Peng Shuai herself?
      - civilized 5y ago
        Yes, Peng Shuai came out to say she was fine, with no explanation for the months of disappearance. She recanted her allegations, again with no detail or explanation as to why she made them against a prominent party official or how exactly her plain words were supposedly misunderstood. Only a child or a 50-center would assume that these things happened without threat or coercion. And she is only the latest in a long list of disappearances of CCP persona non grata, as documented in the links I previously provided.
        trasz 5y ago
        “Only a child or a 50-center would assume that” someone might disappear from the foreign social media for a few weeks without oppressive regime forcing them to? Do you realise how ridiculous you sound? As for "CCP full of angels" - of course not. I'm just not indoctrinated enough to believe US is any better. There's one fundamental difference though: China is improving.
        civilized 5y ago
- trasz 5y ago
  Here is how being wealthy works in US: https://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/02/justice/delaware-du-pont-rape-case/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/02/justice/delaware-du-pont-... There is a difference though: in China this is changing. As for the Winnie the Pooh urban legend: I guess you never asked yourself how is it possible that Shanghai Disneyland still features Winnie :-)
  - civilized 5y ago
    No, the difference is that in America, the news media report on these things which are horrible and embarrassing to our country, so that the people can know and fight to improve things. In China, everything embarrassing to the CCP is instantly censored to present a sanitized reality where all behavior displeasing to the CCP does not exist. Just like how most Russians think Russia is liberating Ukraine in a "special military operation" and the indiscriminately massacring of civilians is airbrushed away. Only criminals censor the media.
    - trasz 5y ago
      >No, the difference is that in America, the news media report on these things which are horrible and embarrassing to our country And nothing changes. Convinced child rapist was let free because he was wealthy and “wouldn’t feel good in prison”. Do you think this was followed by some reform to make sure it doesn’t happen again? >In China, everything embarrassing to the CCP is instantly censored This is obviously false. Talk to someone from China perhaps, or take a look at their media? >Only criminals censor the media. Have you ever heard about gag orders?
ebruchez 5y ago
> USA doesn’t have rule of law Total nonsense. The US doesn't have perfect rule of law but then nothing is ever perfect. Failures like the ones you are presenting have been widely reported, are largely controversial, and nobody who has criticized those arguably undesirable outcomes has been silenced or disappeared by the US government. I would a thousand times rather be indicted in the US or most European countries than in China or in Russia where the arbitrary and corruption of the judicial system reign.
- trasz 5y ago
  >Total nonsense. The US doesn't have perfect rule of law but then nothing is ever perfect. So how is it different from China again? As for being indicted - please check out statistics of how many people in American prisons were sentenced without proving them guilty. The fundamental difference between legal systems in US and China is that the American system is faulty by design, ie its flaws are not considered flaws. Same way politician's corruption is considered normal.
  - ebruchez 5y ago
    > how is it different from China again It's a matter of degree. Not everything is black or white. Things can be better or they can be worse. Since there is no way to just argue one's way out of it, I'll just point you to the ranking established by the World Justice Project [1] in this document [2]. Overall ranking (lower is better): - United States: ranking 27 - China: ranking 98 - Russian Federation: ranking 101 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Justice_Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Justice_Project [2] https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/documents/WJP-INDEX-21.pdf https://worldjusticeproject.org/sites/default/files/document...
    - trasz 5y ago
      What would you say if I quoted a similar index released by Beijing (as opposed to Washington) that shows opposite score?