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> ..is impossible without telepathy. It's supposed to look like it can't be done without telepathy - that's the whole point of the trick! And yet, it is done,

> ..is impossible without telepathy. It's supposed to look like it can't be done without telepathy - that's the whole point of the trick! And yet, it is done, successfully, on stages large and small, by people who are definitely not telepaths.

TulliusCicero 5y ago
I'd be willing to change my mind if a person was able to demonstrate this ability while just walking around a randomly chosen part of a big city, going up to strangers and just straightaway asking them to think of a loved one's name, with the recording stuff and people-choosing being done by a known skeptic. Having it done in a stage environment controlled by the performer in question obviously offers the ability to do research on audience members beforehand, or even have plants in the audience.
- ineptech 5y ago
  Change your mind about what? The performers aren't trying to convince you they have psychic powers, they're trying to convince you to buy a ticket to their show. Anyway, think this through. Derren Brown claims not to use stooges, and has been doing tricks like these on stage (per his wiki page) for 19 tours each averaging 50-100 nights. If he's using stooges, he's going through an awful lot of them, isn't he? Including his TV work, there must be thousands of people in the UK that could go on TV and blow the lid on the whole thing. I ask you, which is the more impressive feat of mentalism: keeping all of those people quiet, or guessing that an audience member drew a picture of a cat?
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    About whether they can do this: > I perfected another where I asked a person to think of a loved one, and then I guessed their loved one’s name
    - ineptech 5y ago
      That's pretty much the opening of every medium's act, right? Have you ever seen one? It would save a lot of explanation, and I'm sure you'd see through it pretty easily.
      - the_af 5y ago
        But there's no way to reliably cold read a name, so it has to be done via trickery (basically, already know the answer).
        ineptech 5y ago
        ...or it can be done unreliably. Again, I can only suggest leaving the realm of theory and going out and seeing someone do it.
        the_af 5y ago
        I'm not saying the "trick" cannot be done. Magicians employ tricks and misdirection in their acts, to great effect. I've watched magic acts and been awed by them. I'm not a heckler. I'm just saying, 100% magic acts are misdirection, trickery, confederates, and dexterity. It's "psychology" in the sense they know how to misdirect. The same with mentalism. This doesn't detract from it; if it's fun entertainment, and the mentalist doesn't claim to have actual extraordinary powers of perception (or supernatural powers), then everything is fair and ok to me! But unnatural "perception" powers, mental powers, etc? Nope. Mentalism is a trick, not some exercise of wondrous mental powers. The latter claim wouldn't pass an Amazing Randi challenge.
        ineptech 5y ago
        > The latter claim wouldn't pass an Amazing Randi challenge. Randi's challenge was for people making claims of genuine supernatural powers, i.e. the mentally ill. I don't see how it's relevant here. > 100% magic acts are misdirection, trickery, confederates, and dexterity. I assure you that cold reading has been done for hundreds of years (without foreknowledge, which would be called "hot reading"), and can only suggest reading up on it. Wikipedia has a good overview.
  - ed_voc 5y ago
    An NDA isn't a particularly impressive feat. With his "The push" show he either uses stooges or uses "mentalism" to turn people into murderers and risks giving the victims severe trauma and PTSD. If the show is real the abuse carried out by Derren far surpasses the abuse of other cancelled shows like Jeremy Kyle. This is why I think its most likely the killers in this show are actors. If he's willing and able to use actors in this show its likely he has used them in others too.
    - ineptech 5y ago
      > An NDA isn't a particularly impressive feat. I think you're underestimating how bad people are at keeping salacious secrets about celebrities. Remember when Bear Grylls had to apologize for the "stranded on a desert island" show, after people on Reddit claimed to have worked on his production staff and revealed that he spent the night in a hotel and had help collecting the material for the shelter he built? If Derren has been using stooges throughout his career, it beggars belief that the same thing hasn't happened to him. > If the show is real the abuse carried out by Derren far surpasses the abuse of other cancelled shows like Jeremy Kyle. Yes, he has been roundly criticized for many of his hypnosis stunts, e.g. [0]. Are you now suggesting that those people are all stooges too? Do all stage hypnotist acts rely on actors? 0: https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/derren-brown-slammed-over-see-yourself-dead-hypnosis-stunt-7191605.html https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/derren-brown-slammed-over...
- zeroonetwothree 5y ago
  Obviously they don't have psychic powers. They are always "cheating" in some way. There are many different ways to do these kinds of tricks.

TulliusCicero 5y ago

I'd be willing to change my mind if a person was able to demonstrate this ability while just walking around a randomly chosen part of a big city, going up to strangers and just straightaway asking them to think of a loved one's name, with the recording stuff and people-choosing being done by a known skeptic. Having it done in a stage environment controlled by the performer in question obviously offers the ability to do research on audience members beforehand, or even have plants in the audience.

ineptech 5y ago
Change your mind about what? The performers aren't trying to convince you they have psychic powers, they're trying to convince you to buy a ticket to their show. Anyway, think this through. Derren Brown claims not to use stooges, and has been doing tricks like these on stage (per his wiki page) for 19 tours each averaging 50-100 nights. If he's using stooges, he's going through an awful lot of them, isn't he? Including his TV work, there must be thousands of people in the UK that could go on TV and blow the lid on the whole thing. I ask you, which is the more impressive feat of mentalism: keeping all of those people quiet, or guessing that an audience member drew a picture of a cat?
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  About whether they can do this: > I perfected another where I asked a person to think of a loved one, and then I guessed their loved one’s name
  - ineptech 5y ago
    That's pretty much the opening of every medium's act, right? Have you ever seen one? It would save a lot of explanation, and I'm sure you'd see through it pretty easily.
    - the_af 5y ago
      But there's no way to reliably cold read a name, so it has to be done via trickery (basically, already know the answer).
      - ineptech 5y ago
        ...or it can be done unreliably. Again, I can only suggest leaving the realm of theory and going out and seeing someone do it.
        the_af 5y ago
        I'm not saying the "trick" cannot be done. Magicians employ tricks and misdirection in their acts, to great effect. I've watched magic acts and been awed by them. I'm not a heckler. I'm just saying, 100% magic acts are misdirection, trickery, confederates, and dexterity. It's "psychology" in the sense they know how to misdirect. The same with mentalism. This doesn't detract from it; if it's fun entertainment, and the mentalist doesn't claim to have actual extraordinary powers of perception (or supernatural powers), then everything is fair and ok to me! But unnatural "perception" powers, mental powers, etc? Nope. Mentalism is a trick, not some exercise of wondrous mental powers. The latter claim wouldn't pass an Amazing Randi challenge.
        ineptech 5y ago
        > The latter claim wouldn't pass an Amazing Randi challenge. Randi's challenge was for people making claims of genuine supernatural powers, i.e. the mentally ill. I don't see how it's relevant here. > 100% magic acts are misdirection, trickery, confederates, and dexterity. I assure you that cold reading has been done for hundreds of years (without foreknowledge, which would be called "hot reading"), and can only suggest reading up on it. Wikipedia has a good overview.
- ed_voc 5y ago
  An NDA isn't a particularly impressive feat. With his "The push" show he either uses stooges or uses "mentalism" to turn people into murderers and risks giving the victims severe trauma and PTSD. If the show is real the abuse carried out by Derren far surpasses the abuse of other cancelled shows like Jeremy Kyle. This is why I think its most likely the killers in this show are actors. If he's willing and able to use actors in this show its likely he has used them in others too.
  - ineptech 5y ago
    > An NDA isn't a particularly impressive feat. I think you're underestimating how bad people are at keeping salacious secrets about celebrities. Remember when Bear Grylls had to apologize for the "stranded on a desert island" show, after people on Reddit claimed to have worked on his production staff and revealed that he spent the night in a hotel and had help collecting the material for the shelter he built? If Derren has been using stooges throughout his career, it beggars belief that the same thing hasn't happened to him. > If the show is real the abuse carried out by Derren far surpasses the abuse of other cancelled shows like Jeremy Kyle. Yes, he has been roundly criticized for many of his hypnosis stunts, e.g. [0]. Are you now suggesting that those people are all stooges too? Do all stage hypnotist acts rely on actors? 0: https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/derren-brown-slammed-over-see-yourself-dead-hypnosis-stunt-7191605.html https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/derren-brown-slammed-over...
zeroonetwothree 5y ago
Obviously they don't have psychic powers. They are always "cheating" in some way. There are many different ways to do these kinds of tricks.