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There’s no debate, just a lack of clarity around terms. The fastest point of sail is a broad reach as measured against the true wind angle. Naturally this lea

There’s no debate, just a lack of clarity around terms. The fastest point of sail is a broad reach as measured against the true wind angle. Naturally this leads to a close hauled point of sail measured by the apparent wind angle. https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/186515/why-is-a-beam-reach-the-fastest-point-of-sail-on-modern-sailboats https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/186515/why-is-a-...

Maursault 5y ago
Unfortunately, your citation hardly supports your position, which by itself is unsupported. Well, it does in the 4th answer down, yet unconvincingly (focusing on drag, but does not eliminate the possibility of a tack with more drag still being faster, because, why not?), and with poor evidence (using America's Cup claiming the downwind tacks were much faster... buuuuut... the wind... it changes, and this is not accounted for in that answer, but clearly the upwind velocities will not be the same as the downwind, as they occur in different places at different times; even if the downwind and upwind (a boat tacking or jibing to roughly the opposite direction) are only separated by meters or seconds, they will always, always be different, thus it is foolishness to compare speeds of the same boats traveling upwind as opposed to downwind; it's inappropriate comparison because the wind is never constant). The truth of the matter is not remotely as clear as you claim, and the debate continues in earnest, and right here right now before your very eyes. I haven't sailed everything, but I have sailed enough to form a strong opinion, and my opinion is close hauls are notably faster than a broad reach or any other tack.
- mattclarkdotnet 5y ago
  I look forward to racing with you! When not limited by hull speed, speed over ground is highest when the apparent wind is highest. That means being ‘close hauled’ in apparent terms but reaching or broad reaching in true terms. Most sailors would describe a point of sail based on the true wind angle, because most boats are limited by hull speed, which most of the time is a lot less than wind speed. A typical cruising yacht might have a hull speed of 10 knots, while a strong wind would be 20 knots.
  - Maursault 5y ago
    > I look forward to racing with you! We'd be racing in different directions. ;) The answer of which tack is fastest could be closed in on using 2 identical sailboats with GPS starting in roughly the same position and heading off on their different tacks, but to account for wind being different in different places, the two boats would need to race over and over again... I think at least a thousand times. Occurs to me the water itself at times has speed, and will also be different in different places and times. So it's harder than I imagined to figure it out. fwiw I've sailed craft that will make 20 knots sailing almost directly into a 10 knot wind, and 30 knots in a 15 knot wind. Gotta love multihulls.
    - mattclarkdotnet 5y ago
      You have not sailed anything that will make 20 knots almost directly into a 10 knot wind. You may well have sailed a multihull that makes 20 knots on a reach or broad reach with a 10 knot wind. And when it did that the apparent wind would be at best 20 degrees off the bow.
      - Maursault 4y ago
        I have indeed sailed 20kt close-hauled into a 10kt wind, and I don't believe the feat is all that incredible. But incredibly, I was on the crew that built the 35' racing cat (iirc John Marples' open salon design) that doubles wind speed (depending on conditions) in nearly any tack. Took 2 years (all wood hulls plus glass and snot), and I consider it a sabbatical from sysadmining. I was in the best shape of my life due to manually longboarding the hulls 5 days a week, fulltime, for 3 months straight, because I really had no shop skills, still don't. But I learned to screw, glass and snot, and bump and grind, and I especially learned how to longboard a hull. I already knew how to sail. Used to swim like a fish, but discovered during those 2 years that I had forgotten how to swim, and I nearly drown in the marina trying to swim across it. Maybe it was because when I learned to swim I was a little chubby, not much, but when I attempted that, idk, 150 yard swim across the marina... and back after a rest (getting back in after nearly drowning was about impossible, but there was no other way back), I did not have an ounce of fat on me, so I had to work a lot harder to keep my head above water. Scariest thing ever, the rational concern that I might drown for being an idiot. Thinking more about it, water also moves a boat. Imagine a fast river flowing right into the wind, and you can sail a boat without sails at 20kt into a 10kt wind, that is, if the water is moving at 20kt. But that is a cheat, so all I can do is reassure you that a racing multihull can gracefully move into the wind on calmish water twice as fast as the wind itself.

Maursault 5y ago

Unfortunately, your citation hardly supports your position, which by itself is unsupported. Well, it does in the 4th answer down, yet unconvincingly (focusing on drag, but does not eliminate the possibility of a tack with more drag still being faster, because, why not?), and with poor evidence (using America's Cup claiming the downwind tacks were much faster... buuuuut... the wind... it changes, and this is not accounted for in that answer, but clearly the upwind velocities will not be the same as the downwind, as they occur in different places at different times; even if the downwind and upwind (a boat tacking or jibing to roughly the opposite direction) are only separated by meters or seconds, they will always, always be different, thus it is foolishness to compare speeds of the same boats traveling upwind as opposed to downwind; it's inappropriate comparison because the wind is never constant). The truth of the matter is not remotely as clear as you claim, and the debate continues in earnest, and right here right now before your very eyes. I haven't sailed everything, but I have sailed enough to form a strong opinion, and my opinion is close hauls are notably faster than a broad reach or any other tack.

mattclarkdotnet 5y ago
I look forward to racing with you! When not limited by hull speed, speed over ground is highest when the apparent wind is highest. That means being ‘close hauled’ in apparent terms but reaching or broad reaching in true terms. Most sailors would describe a point of sail based on the true wind angle, because most boats are limited by hull speed, which most of the time is a lot less than wind speed. A typical cruising yacht might have a hull speed of 10 knots, while a strong wind would be 20 knots.
- Maursault 5y ago
  > I look forward to racing with you! We'd be racing in different directions. ;) The answer of which tack is fastest could be closed in on using 2 identical sailboats with GPS starting in roughly the same position and heading off on their different tacks, but to account for wind being different in different places, the two boats would need to race over and over again... I think at least a thousand times. Occurs to me the water itself at times has speed, and will also be different in different places and times. So it's harder than I imagined to figure it out. fwiw I've sailed craft that will make 20 knots sailing almost directly into a 10 knot wind, and 30 knots in a 15 knot wind. Gotta love multihulls.
  - mattclarkdotnet 5y ago
    You have not sailed anything that will make 20 knots almost directly into a 10 knot wind. You may well have sailed a multihull that makes 20 knots on a reach or broad reach with a 10 knot wind. And when it did that the apparent wind would be at best 20 degrees off the bow.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      I have indeed sailed 20kt close-hauled into a 10kt wind, and I don't believe the feat is all that incredible. But incredibly, I was on the crew that built the 35' racing cat (iirc John Marples' open salon design) that doubles wind speed (depending on conditions) in nearly any tack. Took 2 years (all wood hulls plus glass and snot), and I consider it a sabbatical from sysadmining. I was in the best shape of my life due to manually longboarding the hulls 5 days a week, fulltime, for 3 months straight, because I really had no shop skills, still don't. But I learned to screw, glass and snot, and bump and grind, and I especially learned how to longboard a hull. I already knew how to sail. Used to swim like a fish, but discovered during those 2 years that I had forgotten how to swim, and I nearly drown in the marina trying to swim across it. Maybe it was because when I learned to swim I was a little chubby, not much, but when I attempted that, idk, 150 yard swim across the marina... and back after a rest (getting back in after nearly drowning was about impossible, but there was no other way back), I did not have an ounce of fat on me, so I had to work a lot harder to keep my head above water. Scariest thing ever, the rational concern that I might drown for being an idiot. Thinking more about it, water also moves a boat. Imagine a fast river flowing right into the wind, and you can sail a boat without sails at 20kt into a 10kt wind, that is, if the water is moving at 20kt. But that is a cheat, so all I can do is reassure you that a racing multihull can gracefully move into the wind on calmish water twice as fast as the wind itself.