3 ms·

A good system is where management and engineering can work together and be flexible, not where engineering despises management and management doesn't get what e

by mym1990 5y ago

A good system is where management and engineering can work together and be flexible, not where engineering despises management and management doesn't get what engineers are going through. Due dates aren't siloed to software development, they have been around for a long, long time. I don't understand how you would work within a team and show up every day saying 'this thing will get done whenever I am done with it, until then, please go away' and expect any kind of meaningful collaboration.

spoils19 5y ago
> I don't understand how you would work within a team and show up every day saying 'this thing will get done whenever I am done with it, until then, please go away' and expect any kind of meaningful collaboration. That's how I've worked successfully for the last few decades of my career and I haven't had any problems. In fact, I once had a project manager try to enforce due dates or even ask us to demo what we're working on (despite the fact that we develop bottom-up so there's nothing to show!). That manager promptly got reassigned to another web team.
- mym1990 5y ago
  Wow, getting a manager re-assigned because you didn't like how the project was being managed, real flex there. "I've"..."my"..."I"..."I"...do you see a pattern?
  - doctor_eval 5y ago
    > I've worked successfully for the last few decades of my career A pattern of success?
    - mym1990 5y ago
      Nope, a gold star to you for trying though.
doctor_eval 5y ago
But a due date is the opposite of working together and being flexible. A due date is more often than not imposed on a team because of some fable about how some other team, but especially sales, needs to hook this big deal. And in my long experience, sales is never, ever ready - even if you bust your gut to meet the deadline. I am surely not the only one here to have finished a death march only to have sales tell me they don’t need it any more. That’s not working together, that’s just putting product and engineering at the bottom of the hierarchy. The fact is that any non trivial project has many so-called “unknown unknowns” and these needs to be part of the process, or the project will either fail, or cause significant stress, all of which results in poor outcomes for everyone. > I don't understand how you would work within a team and show up every day saying 'this thing will get done whenever I am done with it, until then, please go away' and expect any kind of meaningful collaboration. I don’t understand why it is so hard to imagine honest collaboration. Due dates are not a magic bullet, and just because you set a date doesn’t mean it gets done then. We know this because it’s generally more surprising when a team ships on time, than when they don’t. A product simply can’t be shipped until it’s done, and no due date will change that. Because of this, due dates are simply a bludgeon used to bash over the heads of the people doing the work. They result in high levels of stress, corner cutting, and poor outcomes for everyone, including the business. There are a ton of ways that you can have meaningful collaboration within and between teams without imposing artificial, top-down deadlines which are of necessity created using imperfect information, and then imposed on the team as law. One of which is to have a well defined strategy, clear goals, honest collaboration, and delayed decision making. But that requires managers to actually think about and be able to express what they’re doing and why; a set of skills that I’ve found to be in short supply.
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  Magical thinking can be that strong in business-side people (executives, managers, PMs, etc.) They are used to exerting their will on others and not being pushed back on.
  - doctor_eval 5y ago
    OMG yes. I am so triggered by this thread that I need to take a chill pill.

spoils19 5y ago

> I don't understand how you would work within a team and show up every day saying 'this thing will get done whenever I am done with it, until then, please go away' and expect any kind of meaningful collaboration. That's how I've worked successfully for the last few decades of my career and I haven't had any problems. In fact, I once had a project manager try to enforce due dates or even ask us to demo what we're working on (despite the fact that we develop bottom-up so there's nothing to show!). That manager promptly got reassigned to another web team.

mym1990 5y ago
Wow, getting a manager re-assigned because you didn't like how the project was being managed, real flex there. "I've"..."my"..."I"..."I"...do you see a pattern?
- doctor_eval 5y ago
  > I've worked successfully for the last few decades of my career A pattern of success?
  - mym1990 5y ago
    Nope, a gold star to you for trying though.

doctor_eval 5y ago

But a due date is the opposite of working together and being flexible. A due date is more often than not imposed on a team because of some fable about how some other team, but especially sales, needs to hook this big deal. And in my long experience, sales is never, ever ready - even if you bust your gut to meet the deadline. I am surely not the only one here to have finished a death march only to have sales tell me they don’t need it any more. That’s not working together, that’s just putting product and engineering at the bottom of the hierarchy. The fact is that any non trivial project has many so-called “unknown unknowns” and these needs to be part of the process, or the project will either fail, or cause significant stress, all of which results in poor outcomes for everyone. > I don't understand how you would work within a team and show up every day saying 'this thing will get done whenever I am done with it, until then, please go away' and expect any kind of meaningful collaboration. I don’t understand why it is so hard to imagine honest collaboration. Due dates are not a magic bullet, and just because you set a date doesn’t mean it gets done then. We know this because it’s generally more surprising when a team ships on time, than when they don’t. A product simply can’t be shipped until it’s done, and no due date will change that. Because of this, due dates are simply a bludgeon used to bash over the heads of the people doing the work. They result in high levels of stress, corner cutting, and poor outcomes for everyone, including the business. There are a ton of ways that you can have meaningful collaboration within and between teams without imposing artificial, top-down deadlines which are of necessity created using imperfect information, and then imposed on the team as law. One of which is to have a well defined strategy, clear goals, honest collaboration, and delayed decision making. But that requires managers to actually think about and be able to express what they’re doing and why; a set of skills that I’ve found to be in short supply.

nathanaldensr 5y ago
Magical thinking can be that strong in business-side people (executives, managers, PMs, etc.) They are used to exerting their will on others and not being pushed back on.
- doctor_eval 5y ago
  OMG yes. I am so triggered by this thread that I need to take a chill pill.