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Thanks for writing this. I have a question for you, since my marriage ended for reasons similar to this author's. Why is the wife's desire more important than h

Thanks for writing this. I have a question for you, since my marriage ended for reasons similar to this author's. Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner let go of the little things and accept that living with another person (spouse or roommate) means you don't get to set all the rules on how both of you live? We are always told "Accept your significant other rather than trying to change them." Why does not that apply here?

yojo 5y ago
If it is unimportant to you, and important to her, then splitting the difference doesn’t mean doing it your way half the time. If it instead is important to both of you, then you have a fundamental problem that you need to sit down and work through. Maybe there is a compromise that will leave both of you happy. Maybe one of you is willing to try changing. Or maybe you have an irreconcilable difference and need to split up. Honestly if you are both ready to consider divorce before you change your dishwashing behavior, that’s a pretty big warning sign that things aren’t on the right track. An example: I don’t give a shit about clothes on the bedroom floor. No one but me and my wife ever sees them. But it bothers her. It costs me very little to dump the clothes in a hamper, and makes her much happier. So I put my clothes in the hamper as much as I can remember to, and she gives me grace the times I forget. Happily together for 20 years so far.
- the_omegist 5y ago
  You omit the fact to some people _anything_ is important and for some nearly _nothing_ is. That would lead to a de facto master/slave-like relationship. People's desire to shape the relationship (and hence their partner's) is asymmetrical. In your example, you don't mention what _you_ made her change to compromise with something _you_ felt was important (and i don't want any answer, as it's something private). It just that it sounded like the classic "married with children"/"the simpsons" premise...
- gleenn 5y ago
  He did mention that he would never care to change his behavior and had two reasons to continue doing it. I guess that doesn't mean it's the hill he would go to die on. I do struggle with the same thing, at what point is it something that's no longer a conversation, you should just change because the other person decided they cared enough about it. Having the wife end a marriage over it also seems ridiculous. If people can't come to realize they are asking for something silly but it's a big deal to them, that seems like that partner's problem. If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time?
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    > If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time? This is my question, and i would like to hear from OP, married 33+ years, on his attitude about this.
    - landryraccoon 5y ago
      > If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time? Is the implication here that your spouse views their marriage as a game they need to “win”, and saying “this is important” are the magic words they need to say to win? Or are they sincerely trying to compromise and saying “I’m trying to meet you halfway but this is genuinely important to me”?
    - llbeansandrice 5y ago
      This is an extreme example/edge case and if that's truly the case you are either not participating in good faith or would likely benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy. You're approaching the topic of a healthy marriage from game theory where your spouse is another player/opponent, not from empathy and good-faith participation or even just as a team with a common goal. Is your goal to "have it your way all the time", or is it to have a healthy and loving marriage with your spouse? If you approach it from the latter perspective, the question doesn't really make any sense.
- zaroth 5y ago
  Right, you do this small act of service because you are in love with your partner. Ideally not even because it makes her happy, but because it makes you happy to make her happy. The upshot of the article, IMO, is that they were no longer in love. And that lack of love became most apparent by observing all the tiny acts of service that people in love do for each other, and people who are merely co-habitating and perhaps also co-parenting, do not give a flying fuck about and use as a safe thing to argue about instead of admitting the truth.
  - abracadaniel 5y ago
    I think the author’s intent was to say that the little things lead to little resentments, and resentment destroys love.
jachee 5y ago
When you really, truly love someone, their desires are more important than your own, in your own mind, too.
rout39574 5y ago
Translated into a slightly different venue: if partner A's sense of order is jarred by laundry near, and not in, hamper, but partner B just doesn't care, then the steady state is A always cleaning up after B. A's happiness depends on a certain degree of order in the shared space, and B is oblivious to that degree of order. Or more likely, it requires a conscious exercise of effort to perceive the degree of order. If B is unwilling to make that effort, they are discovering that they care less about A's happiness than the relative effort required. Eventually, A figures out how low their value is, and takes their relationship elsewhere.
- the_omegist 5y ago
  Those degrees of happiness can't be measured, especially on the long run. And your demonstration can be flipped easily : if A's happiness degree is so strongly correlated to the way laundry is processed to the point that changing B's natural way of doing things seems a crucial matter, then perhaps B should figure out how low his value is.
- gedy 5y ago
  > A always cleaning up after B. (Married 20 years) there definitely needs to be awareness that A might just prioritize something before B gets to it. It's not that B would never do it or doesn't care. Everything is priorities. (I'm talking within the same day or two, not leaving for weeks on end of course.)
- op00to 5y ago
  My partner tends to "ruminate" on making phone calls - setting up appointments, customer service stuff, etc. I am on the phone all day for work, so it's no big deal for me to deal with the calls. Sometimes, I ask my partner to make a call. Most times, she doesn't do it within the agreed upon time period. I either do it myself, she gets to it E V E N T U A L L Y, or it doesn't get done. I used to fight about this because it really isn't "fair" for her to not get this stuff done when she said she'd do it. However, I realized it just wasn't a big deal for me to make the phone calls and deal with this stuff. I'm the one getting pissed over my partner's inaction, not my partner. Since I just stopped sweating it, making the calls when I felt it was important, and leaving my partner be when the calls are not important, I'm a lot less pissed off about calls. I'm sure my partner appreciates not being bugged over this. I guess another solution to this could be getting divorced, but that really says to me that the husband wasn't really the problem here and the regret he feels shouldn't be lodged against his own actions.
zrail 5y ago
When you're hurting someone it's on you to stop before they decide they've had enough. After that you can work with them to get what you want in a way that makes sense for you both. Compromise always comes after harm reduction.
- op00to 5y ago
  When someone is getting hurt by their life partner, they need to speak clearly and explicitly about what is going on and what they want. Expecting your partner to read your mind will end in resentment. Can't reduce harm if you don't speak up.
  - msrenee 5y ago
    The author makes it clear that these things were communicated to him. No one needed to read anyone's mind. He just felt like it wasn't a big deal, so he chose not to change his habits.
dre85 5y ago
I'm in a marriage and I struggle with this same question. I sometimes feel like the things my wife cares about are essentially endless. Like if I bend to "her way" and put effort into consistently placing the dirty cup in the dishwasher, next week something new comes up. Then it's the clothes on the floor of my side of the bed or not hanging my jacket or not putting my shoes away perfectly in the closet. At times I get the sensation that it just becomes like waking on eggshells to constantly mitigate somebody's upsetness of irrelevant (to me) things. I found the article really well written and I think a lot of people will be able to relate to it. Consideration for our partners and compromise is a tricky and interesting domain. I'm realizing more and more that there can be a lot of complexity behind benign everyday situations like a dirty cup beside the sink. Like how can a dirty dish even perturb somebody so much in the first place? Is it related to some trauma or childhood conditioning? Can it be addressed somehow?
- drugstorecowboy 5y ago
  Take a moment and look up Borderline Personality Disorder. "Walking on Eggshells" is a gigantic red flag. I suspect it might change your whole perspective.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  >Like if I bend to "her way" and put effort into consistently placing the dirty cup in the dishwasher, next week something new comes up. Then it's the clothes on the floor of my side of the bed or not hanging my jacket or not putting my shoes away perfectly in the closet. At times I get the sensation that it just becomes like waking on eggshells to constantly mitigate somebody's upsetness of irrelevant (to me) things. I don't understand the complaint here. It sounds like your wife is trying to get you, incrementally, to act like a responsible adult. This is what a good partner does. The more interesting question is why you want to remain living like a slob in a messy environment?
  - the_omegist 5y ago
    I wished your comment was satire until the last word...
js2 5y ago
I'm sorry that your marriage ended. > Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner let go of the little things and accept that living with another person (spouse or roommate) means you don't get to set all the rules on how both of you live? I don't think the author's relationship failed due to lack of compromise or at least that's not communicated by the article. I take the key line in the article to be this one: "My wife communicated pain and frustration over the frequent reminders she encountered that told her over and over and over again just how little she was considered when I made decisions." We don't know anything else about their marriage. We don't know who cleaned, shopped, did the finances, budgeted, had a job. All we know is that the author treated his wife in such a way that she didn't feel respected or heard. I also infer that his wife didn't effectively communicate to him what was really bothering her based on this: "If I had known that this drinking-glass situation and similar arguments would actually end my marriage—that the existence of love, trust, respect, and safety in our marriage was dependent on these moments I was writing off as petty disagreements, I would have made different choices." Without more detail about the disagreements, we just don't know whether she told him why these things were bothering her and he ignored her, or if she just didn't surface the reasons for her upset. We also don't know whether they saw a marriage counselor. That would be an interesting detail. One other point I'd add, with apologies to Tolstoy: “All happy marriages are alike; each unhappy marriage is unhappy in its own way.” Marriages fail for all sorts of reasons. This article is just one example. The author just wants to warn us: this thing that seems trivial to you but annoys your partner may be a metaphor for a larger issue.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  Thank you for the reply! I am humbled with your marriage success. My original comment was more in response to other comments on HR that the article itself, I guess. It seems that many are quick to condemn the author rather than question why someone would place such great importance on the location of a single glass. If she Is so concerned about that one glass, it seems perhaps a signal that there are other ways in which she’s difficult to live with (meaning not easy and relaxed but fastidious and precise).
eximius 5y ago
First, there are no absolutes here. Second, its can often be about preference weights. If A cares heavily about something, and B doesnt have a strong preference, then perhaps B should take A's preference into account. Now, should A have a strong preference for a trivial thing? Maybe not. But that doesnt change anyone's preferences and only breeds resentment.

yojo 5y ago

If it is unimportant to you, and important to her, then splitting the difference doesn’t mean doing it your way half the time. If it instead is important to both of you, then you have a fundamental problem that you need to sit down and work through. Maybe there is a compromise that will leave both of you happy. Maybe one of you is willing to try changing. Or maybe you have an irreconcilable difference and need to split up. Honestly if you are both ready to consider divorce before you change your dishwashing behavior, that’s a pretty big warning sign that things aren’t on the right track. An example: I don’t give a shit about clothes on the bedroom floor. No one but me and my wife ever sees them. But it bothers her. It costs me very little to dump the clothes in a hamper, and makes her much happier. So I put my clothes in the hamper as much as I can remember to, and she gives me grace the times I forget. Happily together for 20 years so far.

the_omegist 5y ago
You omit the fact to some people _anything_ is important and for some nearly _nothing_ is. That would lead to a de facto master/slave-like relationship. People's desire to shape the relationship (and hence their partner's) is asymmetrical. In your example, you don't mention what _you_ made her change to compromise with something _you_ felt was important (and i don't want any answer, as it's something private). It just that it sounded like the classic "married with children"/"the simpsons" premise...
gleenn 5y ago
He did mention that he would never care to change his behavior and had two reasons to continue doing it. I guess that doesn't mean it's the hill he would go to die on. I do struggle with the same thing, at what point is it something that's no longer a conversation, you should just change because the other person decided they cared enough about it. Having the wife end a marriage over it also seems ridiculous. If people can't come to realize they are asking for something silly but it's a big deal to them, that seems like that partner's problem. If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time?
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  > If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time? This is my question, and i would like to hear from OP, married 33+ years, on his attitude about this.
  - landryraccoon 5y ago
    > If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time? Is the implication here that your spouse views their marriage as a game they need to “win”, and saying “this is important” are the magic words they need to say to win? Or are they sincerely trying to compromise and saying “I’m trying to meet you halfway but this is genuinely important to me”?
  - llbeansandrice 5y ago
    This is an extreme example/edge case and if that's truly the case you are either not participating in good faith or would likely benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy. You're approaching the topic of a healthy marriage from game theory where your spouse is another player/opponent, not from empathy and good-faith participation or even just as a team with a common goal. Is your goal to "have it your way all the time", or is it to have a healthy and loving marriage with your spouse? If you approach it from the latter perspective, the question doesn't really make any sense.
zaroth 5y ago
Right, you do this small act of service because you are in love with your partner. Ideally not even because it makes her happy, but because it makes you happy to make her happy. The upshot of the article, IMO, is that they were no longer in love. And that lack of love became most apparent by observing all the tiny acts of service that people in love do for each other, and people who are merely co-habitating and perhaps also co-parenting, do not give a flying fuck about and use as a safe thing to argue about instead of admitting the truth.
- abracadaniel 5y ago
  I think the author’s intent was to say that the little things lead to little resentments, and resentment destroys love.

jachee 5y ago

When you really, truly love someone, their desires are more important than your own, in your own mind, too.

rout39574 5y ago

Translated into a slightly different venue: if partner A's sense of order is jarred by laundry near, and not in, hamper, but partner B just doesn't care, then the steady state is A always cleaning up after B. A's happiness depends on a certain degree of order in the shared space, and B is oblivious to that degree of order. Or more likely, it requires a conscious exercise of effort to perceive the degree of order. If B is unwilling to make that effort, they are discovering that they care less about A's happiness than the relative effort required. Eventually, A figures out how low their value is, and takes their relationship elsewhere.

the_omegist 5y ago
Those degrees of happiness can't be measured, especially on the long run. And your demonstration can be flipped easily : if A's happiness degree is so strongly correlated to the way laundry is processed to the point that changing B's natural way of doing things seems a crucial matter, then perhaps B should figure out how low his value is.
gedy 5y ago
> A always cleaning up after B. (Married 20 years) there definitely needs to be awareness that A might just prioritize something before B gets to it. It's not that B would never do it or doesn't care. Everything is priorities. (I'm talking within the same day or two, not leaving for weeks on end of course.)
op00to 5y ago
My partner tends to "ruminate" on making phone calls - setting up appointments, customer service stuff, etc. I am on the phone all day for work, so it's no big deal for me to deal with the calls. Sometimes, I ask my partner to make a call. Most times, she doesn't do it within the agreed upon time period. I either do it myself, she gets to it E V E N T U A L L Y, or it doesn't get done. I used to fight about this because it really isn't "fair" for her to not get this stuff done when she said she'd do it. However, I realized it just wasn't a big deal for me to make the phone calls and deal with this stuff. I'm the one getting pissed over my partner's inaction, not my partner. Since I just stopped sweating it, making the calls when I felt it was important, and leaving my partner be when the calls are not important, I'm a lot less pissed off about calls. I'm sure my partner appreciates not being bugged over this. I guess another solution to this could be getting divorced, but that really says to me that the husband wasn't really the problem here and the regret he feels shouldn't be lodged against his own actions.

zrail 5y ago

When you're hurting someone it's on you to stop before they decide they've had enough. After that you can work with them to get what you want in a way that makes sense for you both. Compromise always comes after harm reduction.

op00to 5y ago
When someone is getting hurt by their life partner, they need to speak clearly and explicitly about what is going on and what they want. Expecting your partner to read your mind will end in resentment. Can't reduce harm if you don't speak up.
- msrenee 5y ago
  The author makes it clear that these things were communicated to him. No one needed to read anyone's mind. He just felt like it wasn't a big deal, so he chose not to change his habits.

dre85 5y ago

I'm in a marriage and I struggle with this same question. I sometimes feel like the things my wife cares about are essentially endless. Like if I bend to "her way" and put effort into consistently placing the dirty cup in the dishwasher, next week something new comes up. Then it's the clothes on the floor of my side of the bed or not hanging my jacket or not putting my shoes away perfectly in the closet. At times I get the sensation that it just becomes like waking on eggshells to constantly mitigate somebody's upsetness of irrelevant (to me) things. I found the article really well written and I think a lot of people will be able to relate to it. Consideration for our partners and compromise is a tricky and interesting domain. I'm realizing more and more that there can be a lot of complexity behind benign everyday situations like a dirty cup beside the sink. Like how can a dirty dish even perturb somebody so much in the first place? Is it related to some trauma or childhood conditioning? Can it be addressed somehow?

drugstorecowboy 5y ago
Take a moment and look up Borderline Personality Disorder. "Walking on Eggshells" is a gigantic red flag. I suspect it might change your whole perspective.
AussieWog93 5y ago
>Like if I bend to "her way" and put effort into consistently placing the dirty cup in the dishwasher, next week something new comes up. Then it's the clothes on the floor of my side of the bed or not hanging my jacket or not putting my shoes away perfectly in the closet. At times I get the sensation that it just becomes like waking on eggshells to constantly mitigate somebody's upsetness of irrelevant (to me) things. I don't understand the complaint here. It sounds like your wife is trying to get you, incrementally, to act like a responsible adult. This is what a good partner does. The more interesting question is why you want to remain living like a slob in a messy environment?
- the_omegist 5y ago
  I wished your comment was satire until the last word...

js2 5y ago

I'm sorry that your marriage ended. > Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner let go of the little things and accept that living with another person (spouse or roommate) means you don't get to set all the rules on how both of you live? I don't think the author's relationship failed due to lack of compromise or at least that's not communicated by the article. I take the key line in the article to be this one: "My wife communicated pain and frustration over the frequent reminders she encountered that told her over and over and over again just how little she was considered when I made decisions." We don't know anything else about their marriage. We don't know who cleaned, shopped, did the finances, budgeted, had a job. All we know is that the author treated his wife in such a way that she didn't feel respected or heard. I also infer that his wife didn't effectively communicate to him what was really bothering her based on this: "If I had known that this drinking-glass situation and similar arguments would actually end my marriage—that the existence of love, trust, respect, and safety in our marriage was dependent on these moments I was writing off as petty disagreements, I would have made different choices." Without more detail about the disagreements, we just don't know whether she told him why these things were bothering her and he ignored her, or if she just didn't surface the reasons for her upset. We also don't know whether they saw a marriage counselor. That would be an interesting detail. One other point I'd add, with apologies to Tolstoy: “All happy marriages are alike; each unhappy marriage is unhappy in its own way.” Marriages fail for all sorts of reasons. This article is just one example. The author just wants to warn us: this thing that seems trivial to you but annoys your partner may be a metaphor for a larger issue.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
Thank you for the reply! I am humbled with your marriage success. My original comment was more in response to other comments on HR that the article itself, I guess. It seems that many are quick to condemn the author rather than question why someone would place such great importance on the location of a single glass. If she Is so concerned about that one glass, it seems perhaps a signal that there are other ways in which she’s difficult to live with (meaning not easy and relaxed but fastidious and precise).

eximius 5y ago

First, there are no absolutes here. Second, its can often be about preference weights. If A cares heavily about something, and B doesnt have a strong preference, then perhaps B should take A's preference into account. Now, should A have a strong preference for a trivial thing? Maybe not. But that doesnt change anyone's preferences and only breeds resentment.