11 ms·

A lot of folks are misinterpreting this article, or just using it as a jumping off point to get something off their chest. This article is not literally about

by js2 5y ago

A lot of folks are misinterpreting this article, or just using it as a jumping off point to get something off their chest. This article is not literally about the dirty dish. It's not even about compromise. Rather, the article is really about having healthy communication with your partner. The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." But he wasn't hearing it. Not really. Now maybe his wife wasn't communicating as effectively as she could. But the author seems to indicate that she was and that he could have done more to recognize what she was saying and to empathize with her. He didn't get it, and now he clearly regrets it. It's too bad a healthy relationship didn't come out of that, but sometimes there's just too much damage. My wife and I have been together for 33 years, married for 26 of those (we met in HS). I'm extremely fortunate that she's empathetic, compassionate, and has the patience of Job. Because it turns out that for a large portion of our marriage, I behaved like an asshole. She's not confrontational, while I thrive on it. We had a rule never to let a day end angry at each other, but mostly due to faults on my side she wasn't always heard because I wasn't open to listening to her. This built a lot of resentment. It came to a head years ago, but we worked through it and our relationship is healthier than it's ever been. "You're not wrong Walter; you're just an asshole." The hard work in a relationship isn't compromise. That's table stakes. The hard work is communication.

felipesoc 5y ago
He dismissed her feelings, she did communicate that it annoyed her but he thought "it shouldn't annoy her, it's really not a big deal". He tried to reason about her feelings from his own and came to the conclusion that he was right and she shouldn't feel the way she did. And that kind of thinking surely doesn't stop with dishes. He must have done that on all aspects of their relationship
- _69x2 5y ago
  The Atlantic should add this comment to the article as a TL;DR.
antiterra 5y ago
> The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." Too often for me, I have tried to figure out a solution to a problem, when someone was just trying to let me know how they feel. I think there’s some sort of an analogy around a leaky canoe. Like: Is the person hoping for a friendly wave, some hints on stopping the leak or for you to get into the canoe and help bail the water out?
- agota 5y ago
  >Too often for me, I have tried to figure out a solution to a problem, when someone was just trying to let me know how they feel John Gray addressed this in "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" - I believe he argued that this is the #1 mistake men make in relationships. IIRC, he also argued that the #1 mistake women make in relationships was trying to help men by giving unsolicited advice.
- js2 5y ago
  > Too often for me, I have tried to figure out a solution to a problem, when someone was just trying to let me know how they feel. That's likely not uncommon among the readers here, and something I do as well. But I think just realizing that I do it has helped me to stop doing it so much.
loudtieblahblah 5y ago
communication and compromise and all that stuff is a two way street. I mean this in romantic relationship, society, work relationships, just...everything. We've come to accept the one who professes "hurt" must always be bowed to. And at first this makes sense. We SHOULD be empathetic to other's pain, suffering, annoyances and irritations and we should try our best to smooth out relations and get along. But this dynamic creates a power imbalance. The one who complains, the one who is slighted is now given control over those they claim slight them. And this power is often abused. This is the "two way street" part. It's trying not to offend when you speak..but being CHARITABLE when you listen; meaning you interpret the words/actions of someone in the best possible manner, give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he worked hard, had moments of stress and liked the dish by the sink? Shouldn't she just let the little stuff go? The point is... if it's always one sided, always one person not letting it go, or always one person not being empathetic to the condition of others.. it's bound to fail. The whole "you're not wrong but you're an asshole" can go for the one slighted as much as the one not-intending-to-but-doing-so-anyway slighter. My biggest problem about the author isn't even the content - but the whole thing is phrased the way it is for clickbait bc he's trying to sell a book. My point is... relationships are about mutual-ism Mutual-ism that exists without having to keep score.
- js2 5y ago
  > My biggest problem about the author isn't even the content - but the whole thing is phrased the way it is for clickbait bc he's trying to sell a book. I choose to take the author in good faith: his relationship fell apart, he learned something from it, and he's sharing it as a way to help others avoid the same mistake. He's owning his part of the failure. Maybe his wife made mistakes she regrets too. That's a different article for her to write. I mean, sure, capitalism, everyone wants to make a buck. But I just don't seen any value in interpreting and commenting on this article cynically like that. The article only contains value if read in good faith. $0.02.
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
Thanks for writing this. I have a question for you, since my marriage ended for reasons similar to this author's. Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner let go of the little things and accept that living with another person (spouse or roommate) means you don't get to set all the rules on how both of you live? We are always told "Accept your significant other rather than trying to change them." Why does not that apply here?
- yojo 5y ago
  If it is unimportant to you, and important to her, then splitting the difference doesn’t mean doing it your way half the time. If it instead is important to both of you, then you have a fundamental problem that you need to sit down and work through. Maybe there is a compromise that will leave both of you happy. Maybe one of you is willing to try changing. Or maybe you have an irreconcilable difference and need to split up. Honestly if you are both ready to consider divorce before you change your dishwashing behavior, that’s a pretty big warning sign that things aren’t on the right track. An example: I don’t give a shit about clothes on the bedroom floor. No one but me and my wife ever sees them. But it bothers her. It costs me very little to dump the clothes in a hamper, and makes her much happier. So I put my clothes in the hamper as much as I can remember to, and she gives me grace the times I forget. Happily together for 20 years so far.
  - the_omegist 5y ago
    You omit the fact to some people _anything_ is important and for some nearly _nothing_ is. That would lead to a de facto master/slave-like relationship. People's desire to shape the relationship (and hence their partner's) is asymmetrical. In your example, you don't mention what _you_ made her change to compromise with something _you_ felt was important (and i don't want any answer, as it's something private). It just that it sounded like the classic "married with children"/"the simpsons" premise...
  - 5y ago
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
We are always told "Accept your significant other - do not try to change them." Why does not that apply here?
- usefulcat 5y ago
  There's an enormous difference between asking a person to change who they are versus how they behave.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    True. But as child wrote, 'If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time?'
    - usefulcat 5y ago
      If being asked to put a glass in the dishwasher is an assault on one's identity, then so be it. But such a person is probably also ill-suited to marriage or any similar relationship.
      - the_omegist 5y ago
        If seeing a glass not put in the dishwasher is an assault on one's identity, then so be it. But such a person is probably also ill-suited to marriage or any similar relationship.
      - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
        You’re missing the point. That’s one instance. Marriages are made up of thousands of these instances. Are you going to change your behaviors for all of those? Because I have, and it is tiring. Resentment builds on both sides.
        the_omegist 5y ago
        Some people won't understand you. For them you're the only one to blame. You've said it all : some things are clearly bad (over-drinking, being violent, etc) some are good (virtues etc) and the vast majority of things like laundry are not even worthy of debate. If you change your self little by little for someone else, especially if it's a one-way thing, you'll end up miserable.
throwawayboise 5y ago
I can pretty much guarantee that the wife did not say "When you leave a dirty dish by the sink, I feel like you won't do a simple thing that you know will make me happier, and that hurts me and causes me to doubt that you would do anyhing for me that required more effort." Instead, she just griped about the dish. Men are not that perceptive unless they've already been educated about this. Women need to be explicit about how they are feeling if they want to be sure that the men are getting the message. Edit: I'll add, after a moment of reflection, that it's possible that the wife herself did not really understand the reason why the dirty dish irritated her so much. So all that occurred to her to do was complain about it and dig in her heels. The real reason might be that she feels doubts about her husband's commitment to her, and that manifests in being angry about dirty dishes. So often we are taught that men and women are not different, but they are. This could be taught in high school in a personal relationship unit in health class. But it isn't. To the extent it's discussed, it is mostly focused on physical abuse. Mothers can also teach it to their sons, but I'm not sure many do. Mine certainly did not, and I had to learn it the hard way.
- op00to 5y ago
  Each person must be responsible for understanding, taming, and ultimately mastering communicating their needs and feelings to be a part of a constructive marriage. It's not a male/female thing - that's a distraction. It's a personal responsibility thing. Be responsible for your own happiness by advocating for yourself in a clear way. Or you'll end up divorced over glasses by the sink.
- Twounwhe 5y ago
  I will not venture a guess as to whether the author's wife articulated her feelings and needs clearly because I do not know either of them. However, I can say that in my own life, I have been quite explicit about how I was feeling multiple times. In my own words: "When you {seemingly insignificant thing} that I've mentioned bothers me, it makes me feel like you don't care about my concerns, and only care about yourself. That hurts me, and because I've already mentioned this, it makes me doubt that you have any concern for my feelings." (Somewhere around the dozenth time, append "or my wellbeing.") Even so, it usually took repeating half a dozen times or more before my significant other exhibited any reaction beyond dismissal (i.e. moving past "It's just a cup. It shouldn't bother you."). This happened in three separate LTRs. Obviously my anecdote doesn't prove anything... except that "women need to be explicit about how they are feeling" is insufficient (though necessary) in at least a non-zero % of communication.
parentheses 5y ago
Thanks for sharing this. I feel like what you're describing could be my family 20+ years from now. I applaud you for changing for your spouse and hope I can be so wise to listen in these moments.
vlunkr 5y ago
> She knew that something was wrong. I insisted that everything was fine. This is how my marriage ended. It could be how yours ends too. I think this is the important piece of the article. It highlights the lack of good communication.
hresvelgr 5y ago
Yeah, this is just about communication, full stop. I do the same thing with my partner but I also have ADHD so I genuinely get distracted by something else and forget a lot of the time. When I do remember, I do the right thing and put them away (most of the time). I didn't used to but I make a better effort nowadays When it was initially brought up I said: "I know it bothers you, but there is something up with my brain where I will know to do it, get distracted and completely forget as if the thought had never entered my mind. However, whenever I do remember, I will." Granted this allows me leeway when I just cannot be bothered but I avoid pushing the envelope and I'm pretty good the majority of the time. I'd also like to mention that author speaks with such a staggering lack of empathy that I'm willing to bet it was a lot more than just the dishes. I wouldn't confuse cognizance of the issue with having addressed it.
- RandomChance 5y ago
  ADHD is such "fun". > PSA before I say anything else, anyone who knows anyone with ADHD should read up on Object Permanence[1] and Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria[2]! Only very recently has RSD been tied to ADHD and holy crap, the previous 35 years make SOOOO much more sense now. If I had know about them younger I could have possibly avoided so many painful "learning experiences" where I hurt those I cared about... When your spouse says "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." and you desperately want to not do X anymore buy your brain keeps sabotaging you, it makes your whole life terrible. I finally learned that "close" is often actually worse than not doing anything, because it removes any possibility of me completing the task. It also tends to come across as me doing the least amount of effort possible so I can feel good that I "helped". To continue using the dishes example, if I have a dish at my desk and think "oh I have a meeting in a minute, I'll drop off in the kitchen on the way to grab X ", 80%-99% of the time I would leave it sitting somewhere besides the dishwasher (or whatever the final destination should be.) It turns out that once the dish is out of my sight, it's not consciously "my problem" anymore and I can/will ignore it. (stupid Object Permanence[1]) No matter my intentions, and no matter how "sure" I was that I would be right back to finish the task, statistically it was not going to happen. (Also, I recommend actually counting this stuff occasionally, it is mind-blowing how unreliable we are as narrators of our own lives. Just DO NOT follow up by trying to make business-ish decisions or justifications about it, this is about feelings and perceptions not numbers. ) Looking back, the walk to the kitchen is literally the easiest/least annoying part of the task so I would have not actually contributed anything meaningful, however if asked I would have easily sprouted off that I "took care of my own dishes" - a statement that actually implies that the remaining work was trivial and meaningless. I can already hear people saying "But it is trivial!" and that is actually worse, because that means that performing a trivial task was more effort that I was willing to invest in our relationship. (Regardless of how I felt or my intent, communication and perception are key here.) It turns out having an empty dish on my desk bugs me and having it not in the dishwasher bugs my spouse (in addition to meaning they now have another task to add to their own list), only one of these locations will jar my brain enough that I will consistently take action! I now make myself turn around an put the dish back on my desk unless I expect to actually complete the task (dish => dishwasher) in one go. Many times my spouse will come grab dishes from my desk while I work, and that does not bother them because unlike the glass by the sink I will eventually take care of them. I imagine the difference between constantly having new dishes dropped off as if you are a scullery maid, and "Let me grab these dishes while you are working, I know they are bothering you" as a voluntary "tiny acts of service that people in love do for each other"[3] is massive, and carries vastly different connotations. [1] https://themighty.com/2021/09/adhd-forget-friends-love-me-object-permanence/ https://themighty.com/2021/09/adhd-forget-friends-love-me-ob... [2] https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria [3] Thanks for the wording Zaroth!
redbar0n 5y ago
I think the reason the author wasn’t _hearing it_ was that what she said didn’t make _sense_ to him. He couldn’t see the rationality of her argument (ratio = proportion), evidenced by his estimation that her reaction was wildly disproportionate. Perhaps because it was never about rationality/proportionality to her. She had a fundamentally irrationally based argument, and sometimes that’s ok and should carry value. The dirty dishes just _gave her a bad feeling_, and his response was akin to saying: but it shouldn’t! I think the problem goes deeper than communication and listening: _he was valuing his judgement above hers_. (There’s a word for people who are only willing to listen to their own advice/judgements and not comply with anything that doesn’t make _sense_ to them: headstrong.) Maybe he valued his judgement higher because his judgement was rational and her point of view was irrational (based on emotions). I think this is a typical problem rational minded people (like HN readers) are likely to face in interpersonal relations. Especially if they have a belief system that values rationality above everything else.
- zelphirkalt 5y ago
  I finally have a word for that (headstrong), thank you. I have observed this about myself in many situations. People need to convince me of something, by "subjectively rational argument" rather than "because I feel so arguments". While I might be willing to do things that do not take much effort, even when they do not make that much sense, depending on the standing the other person has in my book, I am not willing to do things, that I am not convinced are making sense, when they go against my principles. And I do have some of those. Headstrong it is then.

by js2 5y ago

felipesoc 5y ago

He dismissed her feelings, she did communicate that it annoyed her but he thought "it shouldn't annoy her, it's really not a big deal". He tried to reason about her feelings from his own and came to the conclusion that he was right and she shouldn't feel the way she did. And that kind of thinking surely doesn't stop with dishes. He must have done that on all aspects of their relationship

_69x2 5y ago
The Atlantic should add this comment to the article as a TL;DR.

antiterra 5y ago

> The author's wife was trying to communicate to him: "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." Too often for me, I have tried to figure out a solution to a problem, when someone was just trying to let me know how they feel. I think there’s some sort of an analogy around a leaky canoe. Like: Is the person hoping for a friendly wave, some hints on stopping the leak or for you to get into the canoe and help bail the water out?

agota 5y ago
>Too often for me, I have tried to figure out a solution to a problem, when someone was just trying to let me know how they feel John Gray addressed this in "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" - I believe he argued that this is the #1 mistake men make in relationships. IIRC, he also argued that the #1 mistake women make in relationships was trying to help men by giving unsolicited advice.
js2 5y ago
> Too often for me, I have tried to figure out a solution to a problem, when someone was just trying to let me know how they feel. That's likely not uncommon among the readers here, and something I do as well. But I think just realizing that I do it has helped me to stop doing it so much.

loudtieblahblah 5y ago

communication and compromise and all that stuff is a two way street. I mean this in romantic relationship, society, work relationships, just...everything. We've come to accept the one who professes "hurt" must always be bowed to. And at first this makes sense. We SHOULD be empathetic to other's pain, suffering, annoyances and irritations and we should try our best to smooth out relations and get along. But this dynamic creates a power imbalance. The one who complains, the one who is slighted is now given control over those they claim slight them. And this power is often abused. This is the "two way street" part. It's trying not to offend when you speak..but being CHARITABLE when you listen; meaning you interpret the words/actions of someone in the best possible manner, give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he worked hard, had moments of stress and liked the dish by the sink? Shouldn't she just let the little stuff go? The point is... if it's always one sided, always one person not letting it go, or always one person not being empathetic to the condition of others.. it's bound to fail. The whole "you're not wrong but you're an asshole" can go for the one slighted as much as the one not-intending-to-but-doing-so-anyway slighter. My biggest problem about the author isn't even the content - but the whole thing is phrased the way it is for clickbait bc he's trying to sell a book. My point is... relationships are about mutual-ism Mutual-ism that exists without having to keep score.

js2 5y ago
> My biggest problem about the author isn't even the content - but the whole thing is phrased the way it is for clickbait bc he's trying to sell a book. I choose to take the author in good faith: his relationship fell apart, he learned something from it, and he's sharing it as a way to help others avoid the same mistake. He's owning his part of the failure. Maybe his wife made mistakes she regrets too. That's a different article for her to write. I mean, sure, capitalism, everyone wants to make a buck. But I just don't seen any value in interpreting and commenting on this article cynically like that. The article only contains value if read in good faith. $0.02.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago

Thanks for writing this. I have a question for you, since my marriage ended for reasons similar to this author's. Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner let go of the little things and accept that living with another person (spouse or roommate) means you don't get to set all the rules on how both of you live? We are always told "Accept your significant other rather than trying to change them." Why does not that apply here?

yojo 5y ago
If it is unimportant to you, and important to her, then splitting the difference doesn’t mean doing it your way half the time. If it instead is important to both of you, then you have a fundamental problem that you need to sit down and work through. Maybe there is a compromise that will leave both of you happy. Maybe one of you is willing to try changing. Or maybe you have an irreconcilable difference and need to split up. Honestly if you are both ready to consider divorce before you change your dishwashing behavior, that’s a pretty big warning sign that things aren’t on the right track. An example: I don’t give a shit about clothes on the bedroom floor. No one but me and my wife ever sees them. But it bothers her. It costs me very little to dump the clothes in a hamper, and makes her much happier. So I put my clothes in the hamper as much as I can remember to, and she gives me grace the times I forget. Happily together for 20 years so far.
- the_omegist 5y ago
  You omit the fact to some people _anything_ is important and for some nearly _nothing_ is. That would lead to a de facto master/slave-like relationship. People's desire to shape the relationship (and hence their partner's) is asymmetrical. In your example, you don't mention what _you_ made her change to compromise with something _you_ felt was important (and i don't want any answer, as it's something private). It just that it sounded like the classic "married with children"/"the simpsons" premise...
- 5y ago

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago

We are always told "Accept your significant other - do not try to change them." Why does not that apply here?

usefulcat 5y ago
There's an enormous difference between asking a person to change who they are versus how they behave.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  True. But as child wrote, 'If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time?'
  - usefulcat 5y ago
    If being asked to put a glass in the dishwasher is an assault on one's identity, then so be it. But such a person is probably also ill-suited to marriage or any similar relationship.
    - the_omegist 5y ago
      If seeing a glass not put in the dishwasher is an assault on one's identity, then so be it. But such a person is probably also ill-suited to marriage or any similar relationship.
    - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
      You’re missing the point. That’s one instance. Marriages are made up of thousands of these instances. Are you going to change your behaviors for all of those? Because I have, and it is tiring. Resentment builds on both sides.
      - the_omegist 5y ago
        Some people won't understand you. For them you're the only one to blame. You've said it all : some things are clearly bad (over-drinking, being violent, etc) some are good (virtues etc) and the vast majority of things like laundry are not even worthy of debate. If you change your self little by little for someone else, especially if it's a one-way thing, you'll end up miserable.

throwawayboise 5y ago

I can pretty much guarantee that the wife did not say "When you leave a dirty dish by the sink, I feel like you won't do a simple thing that you know will make me happier, and that hurts me and causes me to doubt that you would do anyhing for me that required more effort." Instead, she just griped about the dish. Men are not that perceptive unless they've already been educated about this. Women need to be explicit about how they are feeling if they want to be sure that the men are getting the message. Edit: I'll add, after a moment of reflection, that it's possible that the wife herself did not really understand the reason why the dirty dish irritated her so much. So all that occurred to her to do was complain about it and dig in her heels. The real reason might be that she feels doubts about her husband's commitment to her, and that manifests in being angry about dirty dishes. So often we are taught that men and women are not different, but they are. This could be taught in high school in a personal relationship unit in health class. But it isn't. To the extent it's discussed, it is mostly focused on physical abuse. Mothers can also teach it to their sons, but I'm not sure many do. Mine certainly did not, and I had to learn it the hard way.

op00to 5y ago
Each person must be responsible for understanding, taming, and ultimately mastering communicating their needs and feelings to be a part of a constructive marriage. It's not a male/female thing - that's a distraction. It's a personal responsibility thing. Be responsible for your own happiness by advocating for yourself in a clear way. Or you'll end up divorced over glasses by the sink.
Twounwhe 5y ago
I will not venture a guess as to whether the author's wife articulated her feelings and needs clearly because I do not know either of them. However, I can say that in my own life, I have been quite explicit about how I was feeling multiple times. In my own words: "When you {seemingly insignificant thing} that I've mentioned bothers me, it makes me feel like you don't care about my concerns, and only care about yourself. That hurts me, and because I've already mentioned this, it makes me doubt that you have any concern for my feelings." (Somewhere around the dozenth time, append "or my wellbeing.") Even so, it usually took repeating half a dozen times or more before my significant other exhibited any reaction beyond dismissal (i.e. moving past "It's just a cup. It shouldn't bother you."). This happened in three separate LTRs. Obviously my anecdote doesn't prove anything... except that "women need to be explicit about how they are feeling" is insufficient (though necessary) in at least a non-zero % of communication.

parentheses 5y ago

Thanks for sharing this. I feel like what you're describing could be my family 20+ years from now. I applaud you for changing for your spouse and hope I can be so wise to listen in these moments.

vlunkr 5y ago

> She knew that something was wrong. I insisted that everything was fine. This is how my marriage ended. It could be how yours ends too. I think this is the important piece of the article. It highlights the lack of good communication.

hresvelgr 5y ago

Yeah, this is just about communication, full stop. I do the same thing with my partner but I also have ADHD so I genuinely get distracted by something else and forget a lot of the time. When I do remember, I do the right thing and put them away (most of the time). I didn't used to but I make a better effort nowadays When it was initially brought up I said: "I know it bothers you, but there is something up with my brain where I will know to do it, get distracted and completely forget as if the thought had never entered my mind. However, whenever I do remember, I will." Granted this allows me leeway when I just cannot be bothered but I avoid pushing the envelope and I'm pretty good the majority of the time. I'd also like to mention that author speaks with such a staggering lack of empathy that I'm willing to bet it was a lot more than just the dishes. I wouldn't confuse cognizance of the issue with having addressed it.

RandomChance 5y ago
ADHD is such "fun". > PSA before I say anything else, anyone who knows anyone with ADHD should read up on Object Permanence[1] and Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria[2]! Only very recently has RSD been tied to ADHD and holy crap, the previous 35 years make SOOOO much more sense now. If I had know about them younger I could have possibly avoided so many painful "learning experiences" where I hurt those I cared about... When your spouse says "when you do X, I feel like Y, and it hurts me." and you desperately want to not do X anymore buy your brain keeps sabotaging you, it makes your whole life terrible. I finally learned that "close" is often actually worse than not doing anything, because it removes any possibility of me completing the task. It also tends to come across as me doing the least amount of effort possible so I can feel good that I "helped". To continue using the dishes example, if I have a dish at my desk and think "oh I have a meeting in a minute, I'll drop off in the kitchen on the way to grab X ", 80%-99% of the time I would leave it sitting somewhere besides the dishwasher (or whatever the final destination should be.) It turns out that once the dish is out of my sight, it's not consciously "my problem" anymore and I can/will ignore it. (stupid Object Permanence[1]) No matter my intentions, and no matter how "sure" I was that I would be right back to finish the task, statistically it was not going to happen. (Also, I recommend actually counting this stuff occasionally, it is mind-blowing how unreliable we are as narrators of our own lives. Just DO NOT follow up by trying to make business-ish decisions or justifications about it, this is about feelings and perceptions not numbers. ) Looking back, the walk to the kitchen is literally the easiest/least annoying part of the task so I would have not actually contributed anything meaningful, however if asked I would have easily sprouted off that I "took care of my own dishes" - a statement that actually implies that the remaining work was trivial and meaningless. I can already hear people saying "But it is trivial!" and that is actually worse, because that means that performing a trivial task was more effort that I was willing to invest in our relationship. (Regardless of how I felt or my intent, communication and perception are key here.) It turns out having an empty dish on my desk bugs me and having it not in the dishwasher bugs my spouse (in addition to meaning they now have another task to add to their own list), only one of these locations will jar my brain enough that I will consistently take action! I now make myself turn around an put the dish back on my desk unless I expect to actually complete the task (dish => dishwasher) in one go. Many times my spouse will come grab dishes from my desk while I work, and that does not bother them because unlike the glass by the sink I will eventually take care of them. I imagine the difference between constantly having new dishes dropped off as if you are a scullery maid, and "Let me grab these dishes while you are working, I know they are bothering you" as a voluntary "tiny acts of service that people in love do for each other"[3] is massive, and carries vastly different connotations. [1] https://themighty.com/2021/09/adhd-forget-friends-love-me-object-permanence/ https://themighty.com/2021/09/adhd-forget-friends-love-me-ob... [2] https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria [3] Thanks for the wording Zaroth!

redbar0n 5y ago

I think the reason the author wasn’t _hearing it_ was that what she said didn’t make _sense_ to him. He couldn’t see the rationality of her argument (ratio = proportion), evidenced by his estimation that her reaction was wildly disproportionate. Perhaps because it was never about rationality/proportionality to her. She had a fundamentally irrationally based argument, and sometimes that’s ok and should carry value. The dirty dishes just _gave her a bad feeling_, and his response was akin to saying: but it shouldn’t! I think the problem goes deeper than communication and listening: _he was valuing his judgement above hers_. (There’s a word for people who are only willing to listen to their own advice/judgements and not comply with anything that doesn’t make _sense_ to them: headstrong.) Maybe he valued his judgement higher because his judgement was rational and her point of view was irrational (based on emotions). I think this is a typical problem rational minded people (like HN readers) are likely to face in interpersonal relations. Especially if they have a belief system that values rationality above everything else.

zelphirkalt 5y ago
I finally have a word for that (headstrong), thank you. I have observed this about myself in many situations. People need to convince me of something, by "subjectively rational argument" rather than "because I feel so arguments". While I might be willing to do things that do not take much effort, even when they do not make that much sense, depending on the standing the other person has in my book, I am not willing to do things, that I am not convinced are making sense, when they go against my principles. And I do have some of those. Headstrong it is then.