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"They found that all of the apps they tested occasionally gather raw audio data while mute is activated, with one popular app gathering information and deliveri

"They found that all of the apps they tested occasionally gather raw audio data while mute is activated, with one popular app gathering information and delivering data to its server at the same rate regardless of whether the microphone is muted or not." The way I read that is, only one of the apps actually sends audio data to the server when the mic is muted. I'm not sure why they don't say which one, and I'm not sure what is meant by "occasionally gather raw audio data" but it could be as innocuous as the mute button not updating and a half second of audio being sent before muting starts. Nobody is building a machine learning profile out of that. The real story here should be that one app where the mute button doesn't actually work. The others are all operating normally as far as I can tell.

2fast4you 5y ago
"occasionally gather raw audio data" could be used to remind you that you're muted when you're trying to talk. I've seen that in either GoToMeeting or Zoom
e40 5y ago
> I'm not sure why they don't say which one Yeah, that's very annoying. Zoom, for example, will tell you, when you are muted and you begin to speak. It's a very nice thing. I have a microphone (that wasn't expensive) that has a hardware mute. I use it when I really want to make sure I'm not heard, even for "speaking" detection.
- toyg 5y ago
  > Zoom, for example, will tell you, when you are muted and you begin to speak MS Teams has that feature too. TBH I'm not surprised: when you mute the mic in an app, you're still letting the app in control. If you really want to be safe, you need to mute at OS level or in hardware. That's why cameras have a hardware cover in modern laptops.
  - sushisource 5y ago
    Precisely, this is why I think the earlier comment's suggestion: > How about we not make the default that companies can do whatever they want and users have to take steps like a hardware-muted mic (which isn't always an option) to ensure a basic expectation of privacy? Sounds nice on the surface, but is ultimately silly. Sure, it'd be nice if everyone did the right thing, but you can never guarantee that, and hence if you really care you need to perform the mute at a lower level than what the app has access to.
    - hutzlibu 5y ago
      Well, I have hardware buttons, too. But without some basic trust, this society could not operate anymore. And the increasingly (or is it just perceived?) shady behavior of big companies are not helping.
      - chopin 5y ago
        >But without some basic trust, this society could not operate anymore. I am afraid this eludes our leaders across the board.
  - the_pwner224 5y ago
    The apps can control the sound devices at the OS level too. But fortunately most(/all) don't, so muting in the sound server / OS is generally safe.
- andrei_says_ 5y ago
  MacBook pros already have a mute-speaker button. It would be so nice to have a mute-mic button which lights up when muted.
  - martibravo 5y ago
    My ASUS laptop has a dedicated mute mic button, not a key, on top of the keyboard.
  - Edd314159 5y ago
    Ironically this is a good use case for a Touch Bar: a button on your keyboard that is only there _sometimes_ because it’s only needed in certain contexts (when you’re on a call)
    - Gigachad 5y ago
      The touch bar is like an idea that works really well in your head. It has so many theoretical cool uses. But in reality I end up never using it for anything.. I would have been happy if the new one had the touch bar and the function keys, but that would have been extra cost for a feature people just aren't using.
      - month13 5y ago
        After using a stream deck for some odd automation, I think the real flaw was having the touch bar be so contextual, and replacing the existing function keys. Had both existed, and and allowed the user to extend their customisation; say buttons for common actions, siri suggestions, shortcuts it may have been perceived differently, and more of power user tool. Most of the actions just duplicated existing UI elements.
        greyhair 5y ago
        I think one thing that makes an external stream deck work, is that it is a separate context sensitive device, that is mentally separated from the keyboard. So when you go to the deck to perform an action, you mentally context switch away from the keyboard, so your brain is looking for different clues. So even with a touch bar + function keys, the function keys stay in keyboard context, but the touch bar requires that switch in any case. Maybe taking your eyes to the touch bar is enough of a context switch, mentally.
- rapnie 5y ago
  > Zoom, for example, will tell you, when you are muted and you begin to speak. It's a very nice thing. Zoom was discussed 2 months ago in "Why is the Zoom app listening on my microphone when not in a meeting?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30266894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30266894
notreallyserio 5y ago
There's a weird culture around reporting problems without reporting names. You see it a lot here on HN and occasionally in media. I'll never understand. Why bother talking about corporate misbehavior (or etc) and not back it up with the basic, minimal data you could provide?
- willcipriano 5y ago
  Makes claims impossible to falsify, without naming names nobody can poke holes in your analysis.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    Or, you know, keeps your ass safe from being sued...
    - LadyCailin 5y ago
      Anybody can sue you at any time for any reason. For libel and slander cases though, telling the truth is a valid defense.
      - smohare 5y ago
        This view vastly underestimates the ability of a completely wrong party to sue for slander. In the US at least. You see this with pseudoscientific snake oil salesmen all the time.
      - numpad0 5y ago
        In theory, but assholes often aren’t creative, and justice system is as it always had been, so,
      - coldtea 5y ago
        >Anybody can sue you at any time for any reason. Which is neither here, nor there, as some are more likely to sue you than others. >For libel and slander cases though, telling the truth is a valid defense. Which is neither here, nor there, again. Not everybody wants the hassle of going through a lawsuit or the time and money costs associated, even if they have a "valid defense".
_n_b_ 5y ago
In their actual paper[1] they identify it as Webex. [1] https://wiscprivacy.com/papers/vca_mute.pdf https://wiscprivacy.com/papers/vca_mute.pdf
- mortehu 5y ago
  Webex will by default listen for ultrasound emitted by some video conferencing devices for easy stop. If you disable this, does that change the results?
  - viknod 5y ago
    I was suspecting this was webex, I use an external audio device (plantronics/polycom Calisto 7200) that has an indicator when the microphone is active. It's only anecdotal, but for me when the webex ultrasound features is activated, the microphone is constantly active as long as webex chat is running. When the ultrasound detection is disabled, the microphone is disabled when not in a meeting. As an aside, this setting was reset recently, but that just seems like the ongoing dark pattern/incompetence of "forgetting" privacy settings between software releases.
    - Swannie 5y ago
      My understanding is that it activates when you make the Webex Teams/Meeting the application with focus, and should turn off some time after it is no longer the active application, I think ~60 seconds. It is doing this for the ultrasonic room detection feature, which can be turned off.
Swannie 5y ago
> The way I read that is, only one of the apps actually sends audio data to the server when the mic is muted You're reading it incorrectly. The paper outlines that as far as they can tell Webex is not sending audio when the mute button is pressed, but is gain and other parameters, based on this audio. And this has been reported to Webex, and they are investigating.

2fast4you 5y ago

"occasionally gather raw audio data" could be used to remind you that you're muted when you're trying to talk. I've seen that in either GoToMeeting or Zoom

e40 5y ago

> I'm not sure why they don't say which one Yeah, that's very annoying. Zoom, for example, will tell you, when you are muted and you begin to speak. It's a very nice thing. I have a microphone (that wasn't expensive) that has a hardware mute. I use it when I really want to make sure I'm not heard, even for "speaking" detection.

toyg 5y ago
> Zoom, for example, will tell you, when you are muted and you begin to speak MS Teams has that feature too. TBH I'm not surprised: when you mute the mic in an app, you're still letting the app in control. If you really want to be safe, you need to mute at OS level or in hardware. That's why cameras have a hardware cover in modern laptops.
- sushisource 5y ago
  Precisely, this is why I think the earlier comment's suggestion: > How about we not make the default that companies can do whatever they want and users have to take steps like a hardware-muted mic (which isn't always an option) to ensure a basic expectation of privacy? Sounds nice on the surface, but is ultimately silly. Sure, it'd be nice if everyone did the right thing, but you can never guarantee that, and hence if you really care you need to perform the mute at a lower level than what the app has access to.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    Well, I have hardware buttons, too. But without some basic trust, this society could not operate anymore. And the increasingly (or is it just perceived?) shady behavior of big companies are not helping.
    - chopin 5y ago
      >But without some basic trust, this society could not operate anymore. I am afraid this eludes our leaders across the board.
- the_pwner224 5y ago
  The apps can control the sound devices at the OS level too. But fortunately most(/all) don't, so muting in the sound server / OS is generally safe.
andrei_says_ 5y ago
MacBook pros already have a mute-speaker button. It would be so nice to have a mute-mic button which lights up when muted.
- martibravo 5y ago
  My ASUS laptop has a dedicated mute mic button, not a key, on top of the keyboard.
- Edd314159 5y ago
  Ironically this is a good use case for a Touch Bar: a button on your keyboard that is only there _sometimes_ because it’s only needed in certain contexts (when you’re on a call)
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    The touch bar is like an idea that works really well in your head. It has so many theoretical cool uses. But in reality I end up never using it for anything.. I would have been happy if the new one had the touch bar and the function keys, but that would have been extra cost for a feature people just aren't using.
    - month13 5y ago
      After using a stream deck for some odd automation, I think the real flaw was having the touch bar be so contextual, and replacing the existing function keys. Had both existed, and and allowed the user to extend their customisation; say buttons for common actions, siri suggestions, shortcuts it may have been perceived differently, and more of power user tool. Most of the actions just duplicated existing UI elements.
      - greyhair 5y ago
        I think one thing that makes an external stream deck work, is that it is a separate context sensitive device, that is mentally separated from the keyboard. So when you go to the deck to perform an action, you mentally context switch away from the keyboard, so your brain is looking for different clues. So even with a touch bar + function keys, the function keys stay in keyboard context, but the touch bar requires that switch in any case. Maybe taking your eyes to the touch bar is enough of a context switch, mentally.
rapnie 5y ago
> Zoom, for example, will tell you, when you are muted and you begin to speak. It's a very nice thing. Zoom was discussed 2 months ago in "Why is the Zoom app listening on my microphone when not in a meeting?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30266894 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30266894

notreallyserio 5y ago

There's a weird culture around reporting problems without reporting names. You see it a lot here on HN and occasionally in media. I'll never understand. Why bother talking about corporate misbehavior (or etc) and not back it up with the basic, minimal data you could provide?

willcipriano 5y ago
Makes claims impossible to falsify, without naming names nobody can poke holes in your analysis.
- coldtea 5y ago
  Or, you know, keeps your ass safe from being sued...
  - LadyCailin 5y ago
    Anybody can sue you at any time for any reason. For libel and slander cases though, telling the truth is a valid defense.
    - smohare 5y ago
      This view vastly underestimates the ability of a completely wrong party to sue for slander. In the US at least. You see this with pseudoscientific snake oil salesmen all the time.
    - numpad0 5y ago
      In theory, but assholes often aren’t creative, and justice system is as it always had been, so,
    - coldtea 5y ago
      >Anybody can sue you at any time for any reason. Which is neither here, nor there, as some are more likely to sue you than others. >For libel and slander cases though, telling the truth is a valid defense. Which is neither here, nor there, again. Not everybody wants the hassle of going through a lawsuit or the time and money costs associated, even if they have a "valid defense".

_n_b_ 5y ago

In their actual paper[1] they identify it as Webex. [1] https://wiscprivacy.com/papers/vca_mute.pdf https://wiscprivacy.com/papers/vca_mute.pdf

mortehu 5y ago
Webex will by default listen for ultrasound emitted by some video conferencing devices for easy stop. If you disable this, does that change the results?
- viknod 5y ago
  I was suspecting this was webex, I use an external audio device (plantronics/polycom Calisto 7200) that has an indicator when the microphone is active. It's only anecdotal, but for me when the webex ultrasound features is activated, the microphone is constantly active as long as webex chat is running. When the ultrasound detection is disabled, the microphone is disabled when not in a meeting. As an aside, this setting was reset recently, but that just seems like the ongoing dark pattern/incompetence of "forgetting" privacy settings between software releases.
  - Swannie 5y ago
    My understanding is that it activates when you make the Webex Teams/Meeting the application with focus, and should turn off some time after it is no longer the active application, I think ~60 seconds. It is doing this for the ultrasonic room detection feature, which can be turned off.

Swannie 5y ago

> The way I read that is, only one of the apps actually sends audio data to the server when the mic is muted You're reading it incorrectly. The paper outlines that as far as they can tell Webex is not sending audio when the mute button is pressed, but is gain and other parameters, based on this audio. And this has been reported to Webex, and they are investigating.