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Because a video conferencing app with a bad UX is going to be quickly supplanted with one with a better UX; the privacy concerns of being spied on by a video co

Because a video conferencing app with a bad UX is going to be quickly supplanted with one with a better UX; the privacy concerns of being spied on by a video conferencing app while you are muted is very minute for most people. There should be a line between "companies doing whatever they want" because of some implied "nefarious" reasons, and "companies doing whatever they want" because their customers want a better experience even if it has security/privacy implications.

ortusdux 5y ago
Because a video conferencing app with a bad UX is going to be quickly supplanted with one with a better UX For the vast majority of users, price beats UX. If a company can keep their app free by selling user data, they will out-compete paid alternatives, regardless of the UX.
- chefandy 5y ago
  Mostly agree. Price has a higher weight than UX but a bad enough UX will succumb to reasonably priced competitors. Anecdotally, privacy/security seem to be on the bottom of the stack. Platform support and necessity for work are above them all.
- julienb_sea 5y ago
  This is not how enterprise software works. Audited data privacy is a core selling point of enterprise communication systems like Slack and Zoom, which are able to charge a lot of money for enterprise licenses and have very viable business models. You're right that this may not work in the consumer space, but that battle is already lost -- there are myriad free communication options available to consumers such as messenger calls, facetime, etc.
  - joshuaissac 5y ago
    > Audited data privacy is a core selling point of enterprise communication systems like Slack and Zoom Is Zoom audited? Zoom had been lying for about having end-to-end encryption, for example, until they were caught by the US Federal Trade Commission. Surely, something like that would have been discovered earlier in an audit, if they were audited and the audits were worth something. They were also sending data to third parties like Facebook and Google through their SDKs. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/zoom-lied-to-users-about-end-to-end-encryption-for-years-ftc-says/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/zoom-lied-to-use... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/zoom-to-pay-85m-for-lying-about-encryption-and-sending-data-to-facebook-and-google/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/zoom-to-pay-85m-...
    - brodock 5y ago
      They also kept microfone on after closing calls, and reverted after getting caught https://thinksproutinfotech.com/news/zoom-update-fixes-macos-bug-that-keeps-microphone-on-after-meetings/ https://thinksproutinfotech.com/news/zoom-update-fixes-macos...
      - LegitShady 5y ago
        this was definitely a thing in windows too although no idea if changed now - I remember zoom running in the tray would cause the microphone to activate even outside of calls. I was weirded out by it enough to stop running zoom on startup and eventually replace zoom with other applications that didn't exhibit that behaviour.
      - autoexec 5y ago
        Seriously, who in their right mind is using Zoom at this point? They've been "accidentally" collecting people's data, disclosing people's data to others, and have been caught lying so many times there's nearly zero chance that it's just total incompetence and even if it were, why use something made by people who are that bad at their job? There are so many alternatives, how is it Zoom has any business at all?
        throwawayboise 5y ago
        > how is it Zoom has any business at all? Zoom was the first videoconferencing software I experienced where the first 15 minutes of the meeting was not spent with "can you see me," "can you hear me," some people falling back to dialing in to a speakerphone, and one or more out-of-band calls to various participants to troubleshoot problems. Zoom was click a link. And it worked. Nobody cared much about anything else beyond that.
        mitchdoogle 5y ago
        Perhaps I am misremembering but I remember using Skype 9-10 years ago without any issues. Zoom does not seem to be that much of an improvement in terms of ease of use
  - johannes1234321 5y ago
    Considering the trouble I have with WebEx again and again UX indeed comes late. I often call it "golf-course-ware" the sales person goes golfing with the executive, they discuss features and prices and discounts ober the match and the executive typically doesn't have to use the software but only their employees or the assistant. Interestingly Zoom for me was a game changer in usability and it spread during pandemic, when executives where at home partially without their physical conference room with video conf setup and without assistant.
  - andylynch 5y ago
    Zoom’s better than it used to be, still some big orgs and their IT security treat it (with some justification and I think informed paranoia) as something to be tolerated due to client demand and avoided for anything sensitive.
  - p1necone 5y ago
    I don't know about this, Zoom has been taking over the enterprise world and they have /awful/ security.
boomlinde 5y ago
I have been using Microsoft Teams and its hard to imagine anyone buying it for the user experience, yet it's not an unpopular choice. It seems more likely to me that the fact that the organization already had a bunch of managed Microsoft software was the most important selling point, and that this is a common situation. "Admin experience" if you will. So sure, Teams gets some things right, UX-wise, but for every "notify the user if they're speaking while they are muted" there's a "randomly scroll the chat back down while you're looking through history", a "randomly make it impossible to erase a link with backspace in the chat box" or a "don't let people see who is participating in the conference", and there's little incentive for them to avoid crap like it and avoiding whole categories of bugs because people are buying it for other reasons.

ortusdux 5y ago

Because a video conferencing app with a bad UX is going to be quickly supplanted with one with a better UX For the vast majority of users, price beats UX. If a company can keep their app free by selling user data, they will out-compete paid alternatives, regardless of the UX.

chefandy 5y ago
Mostly agree. Price has a higher weight than UX but a bad enough UX will succumb to reasonably priced competitors. Anecdotally, privacy/security seem to be on the bottom of the stack. Platform support and necessity for work are above them all.
julienb_sea 5y ago
This is not how enterprise software works. Audited data privacy is a core selling point of enterprise communication systems like Slack and Zoom, which are able to charge a lot of money for enterprise licenses and have very viable business models. You're right that this may not work in the consumer space, but that battle is already lost -- there are myriad free communication options available to consumers such as messenger calls, facetime, etc.
- joshuaissac 5y ago
  > Audited data privacy is a core selling point of enterprise communication systems like Slack and Zoom Is Zoom audited? Zoom had been lying for about having end-to-end encryption, for example, until they were caught by the US Federal Trade Commission. Surely, something like that would have been discovered earlier in an audit, if they were audited and the audits were worth something. They were also sending data to third parties like Facebook and Google through their SDKs. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/zoom-lied-to-users-about-end-to-end-encryption-for-years-ftc-says/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/zoom-lied-to-use... https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/zoom-to-pay-85m-for-lying-about-encryption-and-sending-data-to-facebook-and-google/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/08/zoom-to-pay-85m-...
  - brodock 5y ago
    They also kept microfone on after closing calls, and reverted after getting caught https://thinksproutinfotech.com/news/zoom-update-fixes-macos-bug-that-keeps-microphone-on-after-meetings/ https://thinksproutinfotech.com/news/zoom-update-fixes-macos...
    - LegitShady 5y ago
      this was definitely a thing in windows too although no idea if changed now - I remember zoom running in the tray would cause the microphone to activate even outside of calls. I was weirded out by it enough to stop running zoom on startup and eventually replace zoom with other applications that didn't exhibit that behaviour.
    - autoexec 5y ago
      Seriously, who in their right mind is using Zoom at this point? They've been "accidentally" collecting people's data, disclosing people's data to others, and have been caught lying so many times there's nearly zero chance that it's just total incompetence and even if it were, why use something made by people who are that bad at their job? There are so many alternatives, how is it Zoom has any business at all?
      - throwawayboise 5y ago
        > how is it Zoom has any business at all? Zoom was the first videoconferencing software I experienced where the first 15 minutes of the meeting was not spent with "can you see me," "can you hear me," some people falling back to dialing in to a speakerphone, and one or more out-of-band calls to various participants to troubleshoot problems. Zoom was click a link. And it worked. Nobody cared much about anything else beyond that.
        mitchdoogle 5y ago
        Perhaps I am misremembering but I remember using Skype 9-10 years ago without any issues. Zoom does not seem to be that much of an improvement in terms of ease of use
- johannes1234321 5y ago
  Considering the trouble I have with WebEx again and again UX indeed comes late. I often call it "golf-course-ware" the sales person goes golfing with the executive, they discuss features and prices and discounts ober the match and the executive typically doesn't have to use the software but only their employees or the assistant. Interestingly Zoom for me was a game changer in usability and it spread during pandemic, when executives where at home partially without their physical conference room with video conf setup and without assistant.
- andylynch 5y ago
  Zoom’s better than it used to be, still some big orgs and their IT security treat it (with some justification and I think informed paranoia) as something to be tolerated due to client demand and avoided for anything sensitive.
- p1necone 5y ago
  I don't know about this, Zoom has been taking over the enterprise world and they have /awful/ security.

boomlinde 5y ago

I have been using Microsoft Teams and its hard to imagine anyone buying it for the user experience, yet it's not an unpopular choice. It seems more likely to me that the fact that the organization already had a bunch of managed Microsoft software was the most important selling point, and that this is a common situation. "Admin experience" if you will. So sure, Teams gets some things right, UX-wise, but for every "notify the user if they're speaking while they are muted" there's a "randomly scroll the chat back down while you're looking through history", a "randomly make it impossible to erase a link with backspace in the chat box" or a "don't let people see who is participating in the conference", and there's little incentive for them to avoid crap like it and avoiding whole categories of bugs because people are buying it for other reasons.