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The key is that they can look at the ledger, but not alter the ledger. But also privacy improvements to the bitcoin protocol, privacy focused transactions like

by neb_b 4y ago

The key is that they can look at the ledger, but not alter the ledger. But also privacy improvements to the bitcoin protocol, privacy focused transactions like coinjoins, and payments on the lightning network help hide that even more.

dolni 4y ago
> The key is that they can look at the ledger, but not alter the ledger. This is only true if you think governments are not capable of pulling off a 51% attack. It would absolutely be feasible for a few of the world powers to pull it off, if not a single world power.
- neb_b 4y ago
  Sure for smaller proof of work coins, and maybe today. It would require a massive amount of money, energy, coordination, and time - and it's getting harder to do as the total hashpower grows every day.
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    But who needs that? If "they" can track you down "they" can arrest you, kill you, torture you, extort you, ...
    - neb_b 4y ago
      There are ways to avoid your transactions being tracked. Coinjoin transactions, purchasing a miner for non-kyc bitcoin, payments on the lightning network, etc Also, they can do all of those things, but you can setup your private keys in a way that your family will still have access to the bitcoin even if you are killed
      - PaulHoule 4y ago
        "Lightning" protocol and other sidechains don't deliver on their promises as well as the base bitcoin protocol. "Help" with privacy isn't enough, you need something that is bulletproof and either resistant to you screwing up the OPSEC or otherwise you have to get OPSEC right all the time. Using the same mixer as terrorists could get you charged under anti-terrorism laws. Before you use one I'd ask you to ask yourself if you want to be complicit in large-scale tax evasion, international sex trafficking and all sorts of awful things that make the mixer more than a game where you can imagine you're important because you're a spy or something.
- laszlo-kiss 4y ago
  Theoretically I can stand up a mining operation in my apartment. That means that the 51% attack (as long as it can be detected) can be thwarted by folks at the grass roots level (as long as they actually care). Am I wrong about this?
  - warrenm 4y ago
    You are practically wrong about this - the number of people who need to notice and attempt to a 51% attack is enormous ... and not possible to do after the fact Before the fact? Sure - but then the 51% issue doesn't happen, and you get to precrime
alex504 4y ago
They can look at the ledger, and show up to your house, take ownership of your house and put you in jail.
- sshine 4y ago
  Why look at the ledger? They can show up to your house and shoot you. Censorship-resistance is not an all-or-nothing game, but a gradual refinement. If you want something where they can't just look at the ledger, look at Zcash: https://z.cash/technology/ https://z.cash/technology/ There are countries with totalitarian governments where you can still make private transactions, as long as you don't get too loud about it. And there are countries where any financial transaction will put your family in labor camp for three generations. Some fancy bits on the internet won't help anyone in a rut like that. Doesn't make them useless.

by neb_b 4y ago

dolni 4y ago

> The key is that they can look at the ledger, but not alter the ledger. This is only true if you think governments are not capable of pulling off a 51% attack. It would absolutely be feasible for a few of the world powers to pull it off, if not a single world power.

neb_b 4y ago
Sure for smaller proof of work coins, and maybe today. It would require a massive amount of money, energy, coordination, and time - and it's getting harder to do as the total hashpower grows every day.
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  But who needs that? If "they" can track you down "they" can arrest you, kill you, torture you, extort you, ...
  - neb_b 4y ago
    There are ways to avoid your transactions being tracked. Coinjoin transactions, purchasing a miner for non-kyc bitcoin, payments on the lightning network, etc Also, they can do all of those things, but you can setup your private keys in a way that your family will still have access to the bitcoin even if you are killed
    - PaulHoule 4y ago
      "Lightning" protocol and other sidechains don't deliver on their promises as well as the base bitcoin protocol. "Help" with privacy isn't enough, you need something that is bulletproof and either resistant to you screwing up the OPSEC or otherwise you have to get OPSEC right all the time. Using the same mixer as terrorists could get you charged under anti-terrorism laws. Before you use one I'd ask you to ask yourself if you want to be complicit in large-scale tax evasion, international sex trafficking and all sorts of awful things that make the mixer more than a game where you can imagine you're important because you're a spy or something.
laszlo-kiss 4y ago
Theoretically I can stand up a mining operation in my apartment. That means that the 51% attack (as long as it can be detected) can be thwarted by folks at the grass roots level (as long as they actually care). Am I wrong about this?
- warrenm 4y ago
  You are practically wrong about this - the number of people who need to notice and attempt to a 51% attack is enormous ... and not possible to do after the fact Before the fact? Sure - but then the 51% issue doesn't happen, and you get to precrime

alex504 4y ago

They can look at the ledger, and show up to your house, take ownership of your house and put you in jail.

sshine 4y ago
Why look at the ledger? They can show up to your house and shoot you. Censorship-resistance is not an all-or-nothing game, but a gradual refinement. If you want something where they can't just look at the ledger, look at Zcash: https://z.cash/technology/ https://z.cash/technology/ There are countries with totalitarian governments where you can still make private transactions, as long as you don't get too loud about it. And there are countries where any financial transaction will put your family in labor camp for three generations. Some fancy bits on the internet won't help anyone in a rut like that. Doesn't make them useless.