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The founders of this country are rolling in their graves. Every part of this story. All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information. > "Th

The founders of this country are rolling in their graves. Every part of this story. All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information. > "The most important feature of blockchains is that they are open. And the DPRK can't be kept out no matter what the USA or the UN says," This is conspiracy? Is telling someone that a gun can kill now considered conspiracy to murder, too? Is it really the stance of the US government that North Korea knew enough about cryptocurrency to hold a cryptocurrency conference, but that they wouldn’t have been capable of evading sanctions if not for this man speaking this sentence? And while I’m at it, free citizens should not have to ask permission from the government for where they are allowed to go. In free societies, if the other country lets you in you can go. We are not a free country. Half of a decade! Over 5% of his life, gone. Unbelievable.

jp57 5y ago
Some of the founders of this country were responsible for the Alien and Sedition Acts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  Seriously, the weird veneration we have for the founders is very bizarre mainly because once they got in power, they largely acted like any other ruler.
  - jvanderbot 5y ago
    I don't think their intent was ever to act unlike a government. But then again who can really divine intent? All we can do is live by laws. But even a self-limiting government has to play politics internationally, and that requires a specific set of tools. I don't see anything here that trips alarms to me.
  - Zamicol 5y ago
    Their practical actions clarified and tempered their espoused dogma. Wise individuals are frequently misunderstood thanks to the ambiguity of language, and listeners reasonably prefer assumption over nuance.
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
It may surprise you, but providing information to sanctioned entities that could help them avoid sanctions is something Treasury does not like and it is explicitly listed as something that could land you in trouble. It does not help that Virgil, with his own words, seem to indicate that he was aware that this could help evade sanctions. In a sense, it is a little like openly saying you are aware this car was used for robbery. Obviously, we can easily argue that is not a good comparison at all, but in essence that is what is happening.
jollybean 5y ago
Helping mass murderers with Nuclear Weapons avoid sanctions that are in place because they are ... mass murderers, is the issue here. Not arbitrary knowledge. Nobody is being arrested for giving Crypto talks otherwise.
causi 5y ago
All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information. So did the Rosenbergs. So did Ephialtes of Trachis. I know we've been enjoying a few decades of touchy-feely existence but collaborating with the murderous enemies of your nation traditionally gets you hanged for treason. Five years is a relative slap on the wrist.
clucas 5y ago
> All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information. Compare these two statements: "Mr. Kim, you can transfer money between bank accounts using wire transfers!" and "Mr. Kim, if you wire money to this bank account and paper the transaction in this specific way, no one will know you are evading sanctions!" Both are "spreading truthful information." One is illegal, and one isn't. I think most people can figure out which is which, and I don't think that just changing the underlying medium from "bank account" to "crypto wallet" muddies the issue at all.
jvanderbot 5y ago
I think you're over-reacting. Stories like this tend to be rorschach tests, and it's easy to see what you believe in these vague details. In fact, it appears he was helping NK avoid sanctions by using crypto, in an effort to increase crypto acceptance in NK. The details are (apparently) in the original complaint. Bad journalism/summaries strike again? > It looks like it wasn't just speaking at a conference after being denied permission from the US that got him in trouble, it looks like both before and after the trip he was working on a variety of ways to get the North Korean government more onboard with cryptocurrency, including discussions about mining ventures, moving funds in and out of the country, and offering connections with other cryptocurrency people.
- nickysielicki 5y ago
  Well you’ll have to forgive me because TFA mentioned none of that.
  - hnaccount_rng 5y ago
    TIL: Articles on the internet can be misleading or outright wrong ;)
  - jvanderbot 5y ago
    Nothing to forgive. TFA was probably written to provoke as much reaction as possible, as is common nowadays. The way it's structured, it can get people who oppose the action and people support the action engaged by either calling it a just decision (what a traitor!) and a silly oversight (He was just giving a talk!).
Jerrrry 5y ago
>The founders of this country are rolling in their graves. Every part of this story. Some of them were put in their graves, for similar reasons - treason is treason. > All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information. This is nearly a non-sequitur. Analogous to, "All he did was goto another country to take advantage of the lower age of consent," which is objectively true, but blatantly illegal. >This is conspiracy? Is telling someone that a gun can kill now considered conspiracy to murder, too? Yes, telling someone the whereabouts and function of a lethal weapon in the known context of a premeditated murder is obviously conspiracy. >Is it really the stance of the US government that North Korea knew enough about cryptocurrency to hold a cryptocurrency conference, but that they wouldn’t have been capable of evading sanctions if not for this man speaking this sentence? If the argument here is "how can the mouse be charged for moving the mountain," then that is excusing, trivializing, and absolving actions unduly. How little treason is too much? Just a couple national security secrets okay? >And while I’m at it, free citizens should not have to ask permission from the government for where they are allowed to go. In free societies, if the other country lets you in you can go. You actually do not need a passport to leave, or come back, from and to, the United States. You may find it isn't frictionless, however. >We are not a free country. Half of a decade! Over 5% of his life, gone. Unbelievable. I agree, he shouldn't be locked up. He should had been sentenced to hanging, from the neck.
- ttybird2 5y ago
  "treason is treason" I find the idea that someone who has not pledged their allegiance to a particular country can commit treason against said country to not make much sense. "Just a couple national security secrets okay?" He shouldn't have access to any such secrets afaik. "I agree, he shouldn't be locked up. He should had been sentenced to hanging, from the neck." I understand that it is easy to say such things online, especially since it is hard to humanize someone that you have only seen being talked about in various sites, but I think that you treat human lives way too cheaply, especially for something as minor.

jp57 5y ago

Some of the founders of this country were responsible for the Alien and Sedition Acts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts

JohnWhigham 5y ago
Seriously, the weird veneration we have for the founders is very bizarre mainly because once they got in power, they largely acted like any other ruler.
- jvanderbot 5y ago
  I don't think their intent was ever to act unlike a government. But then again who can really divine intent? All we can do is live by laws. But even a self-limiting government has to play politics internationally, and that requires a specific set of tools. I don't see anything here that trips alarms to me.
- Zamicol 5y ago
  Their practical actions clarified and tempered their espoused dogma. Wise individuals are frequently misunderstood thanks to the ambiguity of language, and listeners reasonably prefer assumption over nuance.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago

It may surprise you, but providing information to sanctioned entities that could help them avoid sanctions is something Treasury does not like and it is explicitly listed as something that could land you in trouble. It does not help that Virgil, with his own words, seem to indicate that he was aware that this could help evade sanctions. In a sense, it is a little like openly saying you are aware this car was used for robbery. Obviously, we can easily argue that is not a good comparison at all, but in essence that is what is happening.

jollybean 5y ago

Helping mass murderers with Nuclear Weapons avoid sanctions that are in place because they are ... mass murderers, is the issue here. Not arbitrary knowledge. Nobody is being arrested for giving Crypto talks otherwise.

causi 5y ago

All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information. So did the Rosenbergs. So did Ephialtes of Trachis. I know we've been enjoying a few decades of touchy-feely existence but collaborating with the murderous enemies of your nation traditionally gets you hanged for treason. Five years is a relative slap on the wrist.

clucas 5y ago

> All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information. Compare these two statements: "Mr. Kim, you can transfer money between bank accounts using wire transfers!" and "Mr. Kim, if you wire money to this bank account and paper the transaction in this specific way, no one will know you are evading sanctions!" Both are "spreading truthful information." One is illegal, and one isn't. I think most people can figure out which is which, and I don't think that just changing the underlying medium from "bank account" to "crypto wallet" muddies the issue at all.

jvanderbot 5y ago

I think you're over-reacting. Stories like this tend to be rorschach tests, and it's easy to see what you believe in these vague details. In fact, it appears he was helping NK avoid sanctions by using crypto, in an effort to increase crypto acceptance in NK. The details are (apparently) in the original complaint. Bad journalism/summaries strike again? > It looks like it wasn't just speaking at a conference after being denied permission from the US that got him in trouble, it looks like both before and after the trip he was working on a variety of ways to get the North Korean government more onboard with cryptocurrency, including discussions about mining ventures, moving funds in and out of the country, and offering connections with other cryptocurrency people.

nickysielicki 5y ago
Well you’ll have to forgive me because TFA mentioned none of that.
- hnaccount_rng 5y ago
  TIL: Articles on the internet can be misleading or outright wrong ;)
- jvanderbot 5y ago
  Nothing to forgive. TFA was probably written to provoke as much reaction as possible, as is common nowadays. The way it's structured, it can get people who oppose the action and people support the action engaged by either calling it a just decision (what a traitor!) and a silly oversight (He was just giving a talk!).

Jerrrry 5y ago

>The founders of this country are rolling in their graves. Every part of this story. Some of them were put in their graves, for similar reasons - treason is treason. > All he did was go to another country and spread truthful information. This is nearly a non-sequitur. Analogous to, "All he did was goto another country to take advantage of the lower age of consent," which is objectively true, but blatantly illegal. >This is conspiracy? Is telling someone that a gun can kill now considered conspiracy to murder, too? Yes, telling someone the whereabouts and function of a lethal weapon in the known context of a premeditated murder is obviously conspiracy. >Is it really the stance of the US government that North Korea knew enough about cryptocurrency to hold a cryptocurrency conference, but that they wouldn’t have been capable of evading sanctions if not for this man speaking this sentence? If the argument here is "how can the mouse be charged for moving the mountain," then that is excusing, trivializing, and absolving actions unduly. How little treason is too much? Just a couple national security secrets okay? >And while I’m at it, free citizens should not have to ask permission from the government for where they are allowed to go. In free societies, if the other country lets you in you can go. You actually do not need a passport to leave, or come back, from and to, the United States. You may find it isn't frictionless, however. >We are not a free country. Half of a decade! Over 5% of his life, gone. Unbelievable. I agree, he shouldn't be locked up. He should had been sentenced to hanging, from the neck.

ttybird2 5y ago
"treason is treason" I find the idea that someone who has not pledged their allegiance to a particular country can commit treason against said country to not make much sense. "Just a couple national security secrets okay?" He shouldn't have access to any such secrets afaik. "I agree, he shouldn't be locked up. He should had been sentenced to hanging, from the neck." I understand that it is easy to say such things online, especially since it is hard to humanize someone that you have only seen being talked about in various sites, but I think that you treat human lives way too cheaply, especially for something as minor.