6 ms·

Another iPhone app, MailWrangler, banned from App Store for "duplicating functionality"

22 points by nickb 18y ago

gdee 18y ago
Apple's stance on acceptance/rejection of these apps is getting more disgusting by the week. There are many ways to discuss this rationally, and many have been used already, here and elswere. But the first, straight from the gut, reaction is just that: disgusting. I know it is their platform, store and will and right... it's still disgusting.
- axod 18y ago
  Why is it disgusting? Why is it surprising? People seem to be forgetting Apple is a business. Not a charity. I think Apples biggest mistake was to launch the app store in the first place. I'm not interested in pretending my phone is a light saber, or using it as a flashlight. For me, it sort of "dumbs down" the phone. There are some apps that look well written, like super monkey balls etc, but most of them are just idiotic. Wastes of time, and money. Apple is there to make money, and give users what they want. Not developers. If there's an app in the store that does something similar to an app Apple does, but a bit better, guess which one I want as a user? The Apple one. I want to know Apple will support it, be behind it, make sure it works for everyone etc. The other app could be a 1 man band who isn't that bothered. I don't think Apple should have opened the app store, they should have just exposed all the hardware to javascript, as they did with the multitouch, orientation changes etc. The only thing the app store has going for it is a willingness from users to pay money for novelty apps, but I think that will soon wear off. In this particular case I can't see why anyone would want the app anyway. What does it offer above the standard mail app? Do Apple really need the extra hassle of providing support - "My mail doesn't work Apple!!! Oh um by the way I'm using some weird app I installed"
  - DabAsteroid 18y ago
    Apple is there to make money, and give users what they want. Not developers. When people own computers, they want applications available -- the more the better. Remember the "10,000 programs" television ad for the Apple II? http://www.google.com/search?q=%22apple+ii%22+%2210%2C000+programs%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22apple+ii%22+%2210%2C000+pr... The decision to buy a computer is mainly based on the size of the application-base. The early-adopters are anticipating rapid application-base growth. To grow the application base, one needs developers. As Steve Balmer said: http://www.google.com/search?q=steve+balmer+developers http://www.google.com/search?q=steve+balmer+developers
    - axod 18y ago
      The iPhone has one of the best browsers available, with a pretty fast javascript engine. You can run whatever you like. I disagree about people wanting native installable apps. I don't think they particularly do any more. I'd be really surprised if anyone bought the iPhone because of a certain app in the app store.
      - DabAsteroid 18y ago
        I'd be really surprised if anyone bought the iPhone because of a certain app in the app store. So would I, which is why I said that people want the availability of a wide variety of applications, not any particular application.
      - JeffJenkins 18y ago
        A significant portion of my purchase decision was that OmniFocus was releasing a portable version of their program. The trouble with browser-based iPhone apps -- around here, anyway -- is that you can't use them on the subway. The GMail client on my old blackberry was like that and it was totally worthless during most of the time I was mobile. I do think that web apps with the HTML 5 database ( http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#sql http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#sql ) and clever caching would cover most use-cases. It does still leave email-outbox style functionality out of apps, but a simple message-passing service in the API would solve that.
      - nonrecursive 18y ago
        I also bought the iphone because OmniFocus was going to be available for it
      - radley 18y ago
        It's not the JS engine speed - it's the connection/download speed that matters, especially for iPhone v1. Apps were essential even before the app store opened. Jailbreaking, yo, remember?
        axod 18y ago
        The answer to that thought would be to demand better carriers, more wifi, etc if they are not present in your country.
  - netcan 18y ago
    Would you find it disgusting if they started buying up failed companies for the patents & suing left, right & centre?
    - axod 18y ago
      How is that relevant?
      - raganwald 18y ago
        It has to do with the characteristic of the activity being "disgusting" as opposed to being "not in shareholder's interests," "not in customers' interests," or even "not in society's interests." Both corporate behaviours have incited this kind of deeply emotional response. So it's interesting to ask someone if they have the same emotional response to each corporate behaviour. It would be very interesting to me if someone says they find patent trolling to be businesses making money according to the rules of the game as they are written but that same person thinks of Apple's behaviour as "disgusting." I am not suggesting anybody here has that response, just that I see that the question is interesting.
        netcan 18y ago
        Exactly. If neither of these behaviours are 'disgusting,' what is? IE if you don't find these disgusting, then you probably think that no business behaviour qualifies for this title. In that case, that comment is out of place. Why say 'why is this disgusting?' What you mean is 'There's no such thing as disgusting in business.
        raganwald 18y ago
        There's no such thing as disgusting in business No, there isn't. Business is amroal for the simple reason that corporations are not people. However, there is such a thing as disgusting when people make business decisions. The fact that someone owns a business or works for a business does not relive them of personal moral responsibility. A business is perfectly correct to decide that offshoring shoe manufacturing to copuntries with child labour is the right choice. A business is perfectly correct to decide that offshoring chemical manufacturing to countries with lax safety standards is the right choice. The people working for those businesses, on the other hand, are not off the hook. They cannot invoke the Nuremburg defence, for can they assert that since the business is devoid of responsibility, and they work for the business, their decisions while on the job are devoid of responsibility. Thus, speaking to another post here, I have no ethical problem with a firm that exists to commit patent extortion. However, I find the actions of its founders and employees disgusting.
  - notauser 18y ago
    I modded you back up because people who write civil comments sharing another opinion don't deserve to be modded down just for being wrong.
  - RobGR 18y ago
    A business -- or a charity, military platoon, gang, masonic lodge, baseball team, or any other name we have for a group of people -- is not a robot. It is still a group of people. Take some activity we might consider disgusting -- like chopping down a productive fruit tree, or shooting a milk-producing cow, shitting all over the people who give you 30 percent of their sales and help make an economic engine that feeds you, etc -- it is not disgusting if a robot does it. If a tree-harvesting robot cut down productive fruit trees instead of the pine lumber, we'd say, "Hey, broken robot there -- fix it." But if a group of PEOPLE did that, we'd call them stupid and disgusting, and be fearful of what they were doing to the economy. If they formed an LLC and did it, they would be stupid and disgusting. If they formed a cult and selected a guru and did it, they would be stupid and disgusting. "Apple" is just a name for a bunch of stupid and disgusting people. They could dissolve the corporation, and they would still be a few tens of thousands weirdos, with a creepy turtle neck wearing "design guru", and probably be trying to sell you overpriced crap that you could not modify, based on a subtle implication of elitism if you joined by buying. I think the only reasonable phone to consider at this point is the OpenMoko. Unlike Android, it's here now. People are doing stuff like http://www.neopwn.com/ http://www.neopwn.com/ with it. Unfortunately, as near as I can tell, there are simply no cellular providers that meet basic standards of reasonable behaviour, such that I would sign up with them. They all seem to be run by people like axod, and probably think it's OK to have sex with children as long you form an S corp hire yourself to rape them, to insulate your soul from it like a kind of ethical condom.
- jcromartie 18y ago
  Honestly, I just wish they were more consistent. I don't care that they reject apps they don't like on their own service for their own device. I do care that they let some through that are really unpolished. If I made a really stellar app and put lots of time and effort into it, I would hate for it to drown in a sea of inferior half-assed apps. The App Store is for business. If I want to do something more exploratory or academic I do it in an open system.
litewulf 18y ago
Again, if this is something that bothers you, please understand the solution is to NOT BUY AN IPHONE, and not "whine online and continue to use your iphone". RMS once agreed that OSS tools were inferior, but he only used OSS tools because by doing so (and contributing code and +1 userbase) he was working towards a future where the OSS achieved parity or became better. Same for all these other arguments. "But only Apple makes iPhones" is true, but ignores the greater market impact. Besides, I fear that with the death of Palm and the increasing distaste towards WinMo (and the continuing stillbirth of Android) that the lesson carriers are learning is that closed is better.
- gdee 18y ago
  1. How about those that bought an iPhone anywhere between when the AppStore was announced and when this crap started?* Do they get to "whine"? 2. Even if 1. is not the case, why not "whine"? Some might even end up calling it userbase reaction, feedback. Not getting into something is not always the answer to having some issues with that something. Also, equating negative opinions about something about which you have a positive one with "whining" ain't cool. * not my case.
  - litewulf 18y ago
    True. I would say the events are not surprising given the way Apple works as a company, but sure, I guess they have a right to complain. I also think they should vote with their dollars too though.
- webwright 18y ago
  Eh? Not buying an iPhone is certainly a solution, but it's not the only one. If I walked into my favorite restaurant and said, "I love this place, but I wish you had slightly fresher salads," would you say, "Shut up and take a walk-- there are plenty of restaurants down the street."? Consumer feedback is important. You're probably right that the most powerful thing a consumer could do is very loudly announce that they weren't going to buy for a specific reason. But it's still plenty compelling for a business to hear, "I'll grudgingly use your app/tool, but I'm continually frustrated by X". Watch Apple-- I'd wager they respond to the "whining".
uuilly 18y ago
It really doesn't matter whether these stories are true or not. The fact that they could conceivably be true is indicative of a major problem. After years of building software around Microsoft's tedious business plans, we developers are excited b/c the "good guy" is on the cusp of winning the next big war. But Apple is blowing it badly. Developers flocked to them like refugees b/c they were allowed to use the tools they wanted and their users had a platform that worked. Now Apple is playing home court advantage much more heavy handedly than Microsoft ever dreamed. The iPhone is years ahead of the competition. Steve does not need to behave like Vladamir Putin to win. Balmer had it right about one thing even if he never stayed true to it: "Developers, developers, developers!!!" Reminds me of the Fight Club quote: "We cook your meals. We haul your trash. We connect your calls. We drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not fuck with us."
- axod 18y ago
  If you think the app store is the next big war you're totally missing the massive ship sailing past.
  - uuilly 18y ago
    I think mobile is the next big war. And the app-store is the AOL of mobile.
    - axod 18y ago
      Do you think people will spend more time using apps in the iphone store, or webapps in the browser? I'd bet on the latter personally. People have been saying Mobile is the next war for the last 10 years.
      - unalone 18y ago
        I'm going to have to disagree with you. What was the number Steve gave last week? 100,000,000 downloads? Apps are faster, they feel better, they can take advantage of the tilt properties and of multitouch. Did you not see the new ads? The new focus is all about gaming. You can't do games on the web with the same level of quality.
antirez 18y ago
In my opinion this case is much alarming then the previous one (the podcast application) because here seems like that the guys in charge to check if the applications are ok or not are not competent enough, or better, they don't really have a clue if they claim the missing 'edit account' is an application problem (it can be an usability feature). Very sad.
axod 18y ago
Please, we get it. Apple reject some apps from their store. How many more of these 'stories' do we need before everyone gets it? If this is surprising to you, you should probably read some books on business, customer service, user experience etc It's a shame this sort of thing gets upvoted IMHO.

22 points by nickb 18y ago

gdee 18y ago

Apple's stance on acceptance/rejection of these apps is getting more disgusting by the week. There are many ways to discuss this rationally, and many have been used already, here and elswere. But the first, straight from the gut, reaction is just that: disgusting. I know it is their platform, store and will and right... it's still disgusting.

axod 18y ago
Why is it disgusting? Why is it surprising? People seem to be forgetting Apple is a business. Not a charity. I think Apples biggest mistake was to launch the app store in the first place. I'm not interested in pretending my phone is a light saber, or using it as a flashlight. For me, it sort of "dumbs down" the phone. There are some apps that look well written, like super monkey balls etc, but most of them are just idiotic. Wastes of time, and money. Apple is there to make money, and give users what they want. Not developers. If there's an app in the store that does something similar to an app Apple does, but a bit better, guess which one I want as a user? The Apple one. I want to know Apple will support it, be behind it, make sure it works for everyone etc. The other app could be a 1 man band who isn't that bothered. I don't think Apple should have opened the app store, they should have just exposed all the hardware to javascript, as they did with the multitouch, orientation changes etc. The only thing the app store has going for it is a willingness from users to pay money for novelty apps, but I think that will soon wear off. In this particular case I can't see why anyone would want the app anyway. What does it offer above the standard mail app? Do Apple really need the extra hassle of providing support - "My mail doesn't work Apple!!! Oh um by the way I'm using some weird app I installed"
- DabAsteroid 18y ago
  Apple is there to make money, and give users what they want. Not developers. When people own computers, they want applications available -- the more the better. Remember the "10,000 programs" television ad for the Apple II? http://www.google.com/search?q=%22apple+ii%22+%2210%2C000+programs%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22apple+ii%22+%2210%2C000+pr... The decision to buy a computer is mainly based on the size of the application-base. The early-adopters are anticipating rapid application-base growth. To grow the application base, one needs developers. As Steve Balmer said: http://www.google.com/search?q=steve+balmer+developers http://www.google.com/search?q=steve+balmer+developers
  - axod 18y ago
    The iPhone has one of the best browsers available, with a pretty fast javascript engine. You can run whatever you like. I disagree about people wanting native installable apps. I don't think they particularly do any more. I'd be really surprised if anyone bought the iPhone because of a certain app in the app store.
    - DabAsteroid 18y ago
      I'd be really surprised if anyone bought the iPhone because of a certain app in the app store. So would I, which is why I said that people want the availability of a wide variety of applications, not any particular application.
    - JeffJenkins 18y ago
      A significant portion of my purchase decision was that OmniFocus was releasing a portable version of their program. The trouble with browser-based iPhone apps -- around here, anyway -- is that you can't use them on the subway. The GMail client on my old blackberry was like that and it was totally worthless during most of the time I was mobile. I do think that web apps with the HTML 5 database ( http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#sql http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#sql ) and clever caching would cover most use-cases. It does still leave email-outbox style functionality out of apps, but a simple message-passing service in the API would solve that.
    - nonrecursive 18y ago
      I also bought the iphone because OmniFocus was going to be available for it
    - radley 18y ago
      It's not the JS engine speed - it's the connection/download speed that matters, especially for iPhone v1. Apps were essential even before the app store opened. Jailbreaking, yo, remember?
      - axod 18y ago
        The answer to that thought would be to demand better carriers, more wifi, etc if they are not present in your country.
- netcan 18y ago
  Would you find it disgusting if they started buying up failed companies for the patents & suing left, right & centre?
  - axod 18y ago
    How is that relevant?
    - raganwald 18y ago
      It has to do with the characteristic of the activity being "disgusting" as opposed to being "not in shareholder's interests," "not in customers' interests," or even "not in society's interests." Both corporate behaviours have incited this kind of deeply emotional response. So it's interesting to ask someone if they have the same emotional response to each corporate behaviour. It would be very interesting to me if someone says they find patent trolling to be businesses making money according to the rules of the game as they are written but that same person thinks of Apple's behaviour as "disgusting." I am not suggesting anybody here has that response, just that I see that the question is interesting.
      - netcan 18y ago
        Exactly. If neither of these behaviours are 'disgusting,' what is? IE if you don't find these disgusting, then you probably think that no business behaviour qualifies for this title. In that case, that comment is out of place. Why say 'why is this disgusting?' What you mean is 'There's no such thing as disgusting in business.
        raganwald 18y ago
        There's no such thing as disgusting in business No, there isn't. Business is amroal for the simple reason that corporations are not people. However, there is such a thing as disgusting when people make business decisions. The fact that someone owns a business or works for a business does not relive them of personal moral responsibility. A business is perfectly correct to decide that offshoring shoe manufacturing to copuntries with child labour is the right choice. A business is perfectly correct to decide that offshoring chemical manufacturing to countries with lax safety standards is the right choice. The people working for those businesses, on the other hand, are not off the hook. They cannot invoke the Nuremburg defence, for can they assert that since the business is devoid of responsibility, and they work for the business, their decisions while on the job are devoid of responsibility. Thus, speaking to another post here, I have no ethical problem with a firm that exists to commit patent extortion. However, I find the actions of its founders and employees disgusting.
- notauser 18y ago
  I modded you back up because people who write civil comments sharing another opinion don't deserve to be modded down just for being wrong.
- RobGR 18y ago
  A business -- or a charity, military platoon, gang, masonic lodge, baseball team, or any other name we have for a group of people -- is not a robot. It is still a group of people. Take some activity we might consider disgusting -- like chopping down a productive fruit tree, or shooting a milk-producing cow, shitting all over the people who give you 30 percent of their sales and help make an economic engine that feeds you, etc -- it is not disgusting if a robot does it. If a tree-harvesting robot cut down productive fruit trees instead of the pine lumber, we'd say, "Hey, broken robot there -- fix it." But if a group of PEOPLE did that, we'd call them stupid and disgusting, and be fearful of what they were doing to the economy. If they formed an LLC and did it, they would be stupid and disgusting. If they formed a cult and selected a guru and did it, they would be stupid and disgusting. "Apple" is just a name for a bunch of stupid and disgusting people. They could dissolve the corporation, and they would still be a few tens of thousands weirdos, with a creepy turtle neck wearing "design guru", and probably be trying to sell you overpriced crap that you could not modify, based on a subtle implication of elitism if you joined by buying. I think the only reasonable phone to consider at this point is the OpenMoko. Unlike Android, it's here now. People are doing stuff like http://www.neopwn.com/ http://www.neopwn.com/ with it. Unfortunately, as near as I can tell, there are simply no cellular providers that meet basic standards of reasonable behaviour, such that I would sign up with them. They all seem to be run by people like axod, and probably think it's OK to have sex with children as long you form an S corp hire yourself to rape them, to insulate your soul from it like a kind of ethical condom.
jcromartie 18y ago
Honestly, I just wish they were more consistent. I don't care that they reject apps they don't like on their own service for their own device. I do care that they let some through that are really unpolished. If I made a really stellar app and put lots of time and effort into it, I would hate for it to drown in a sea of inferior half-assed apps. The App Store is for business. If I want to do something more exploratory or academic I do it in an open system.

litewulf 18y ago

Again, if this is something that bothers you, please understand the solution is to NOT BUY AN IPHONE, and not "whine online and continue to use your iphone". RMS once agreed that OSS tools were inferior, but he only used OSS tools because by doing so (and contributing code and +1 userbase) he was working towards a future where the OSS achieved parity or became better. Same for all these other arguments. "But only Apple makes iPhones" is true, but ignores the greater market impact. Besides, I fear that with the death of Palm and the increasing distaste towards WinMo (and the continuing stillbirth of Android) that the lesson carriers are learning is that closed is better.

gdee 18y ago
1. How about those that bought an iPhone anywhere between when the AppStore was announced and when this crap started?* Do they get to "whine"? 2. Even if 1. is not the case, why not "whine"? Some might even end up calling it userbase reaction, feedback. Not getting into something is not always the answer to having some issues with that something. Also, equating negative opinions about something about which you have a positive one with "whining" ain't cool. * not my case.
- litewulf 18y ago
  True. I would say the events are not surprising given the way Apple works as a company, but sure, I guess they have a right to complain. I also think they should vote with their dollars too though.
webwright 18y ago
Eh? Not buying an iPhone is certainly a solution, but it's not the only one. If I walked into my favorite restaurant and said, "I love this place, but I wish you had slightly fresher salads," would you say, "Shut up and take a walk-- there are plenty of restaurants down the street."? Consumer feedback is important. You're probably right that the most powerful thing a consumer could do is very loudly announce that they weren't going to buy for a specific reason. But it's still plenty compelling for a business to hear, "I'll grudgingly use your app/tool, but I'm continually frustrated by X". Watch Apple-- I'd wager they respond to the "whining".

uuilly 18y ago

It really doesn't matter whether these stories are true or not. The fact that they could conceivably be true is indicative of a major problem. After years of building software around Microsoft's tedious business plans, we developers are excited b/c the "good guy" is on the cusp of winning the next big war. But Apple is blowing it badly. Developers flocked to them like refugees b/c they were allowed to use the tools they wanted and their users had a platform that worked. Now Apple is playing home court advantage much more heavy handedly than Microsoft ever dreamed. The iPhone is years ahead of the competition. Steve does not need to behave like Vladamir Putin to win. Balmer had it right about one thing even if he never stayed true to it: "Developers, developers, developers!!!" Reminds me of the Fight Club quote: "We cook your meals. We haul your trash. We connect your calls. We drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not fuck with us."

axod 18y ago
If you think the app store is the next big war you're totally missing the massive ship sailing past.
- uuilly 18y ago
  I think mobile is the next big war. And the app-store is the AOL of mobile.
  - axod 18y ago
    Do you think people will spend more time using apps in the iphone store, or webapps in the browser? I'd bet on the latter personally. People have been saying Mobile is the next war for the last 10 years.
    - unalone 18y ago
      I'm going to have to disagree with you. What was the number Steve gave last week? 100,000,000 downloads? Apps are faster, they feel better, they can take advantage of the tilt properties and of multitouch. Did you not see the new ads? The new focus is all about gaming. You can't do games on the web with the same level of quality.

antirez 18y ago

In my opinion this case is much alarming then the previous one (the podcast application) because here seems like that the guys in charge to check if the applications are ok or not are not competent enough, or better, they don't really have a clue if they claim the missing 'edit account' is an application problem (it can be an usability feature). Very sad.

axod 18y ago

Please, we get it. Apple reject some apps from their store. How many more of these 'stories' do we need before everyone gets it? If this is surprising to you, you should probably read some books on business, customer service, user experience etc It's a shame this sort of thing gets upvoted IMHO.