4 ms·

I'd suppose the thing I'd warn here: Remember that, by definition, this article was written by a failure -- meaning that the likelihood that they fully understa

by jrm4 5y ago

I'd suppose the thing I'd warn here: Remember that, by definition, this article was written by a failure -- meaning that the likelihood that they fully understand the situation even now is still pretty low; especially since they're still likely in a sense seeking validation by writing the article. Ideally, you'd like to hear from a success. And at the risk being the horn-tooter, (married for 15+ years), when I read this I'm like "sigh, okay, where to begin..." (As in, I can't even respond to it directly; I'd have to be like, "no, ask me a precise question and I'll see if I can answer it to the best of my ability.)

captaincaveman 5y ago
hmmm marriages fail after 15 years too, at what point do you declare success?
- jrm4 5y ago
  Sure, good point -- but I'd guess that there's something like; the earlier the marriage fails, the more likely it's a "correctable behavior or habit" thing, as opposed to something like fundamental like "someone was getting their own identity wrong," or "deeply dramatic external change in circumstances?"
- khazhoux 5y ago
  It's not symmetric. Success is a constant work-in-progress.
- zild3d 5y ago
  I wonder if the lindy effect applies to marriages? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect
elptacek 5y ago
I'll bite. We're coming up on our 24th anniversary. I will likely regret this, but this is what I have learned. 1. Misery is a function of expectations management. As is said, every relationship is different. Expectations could range everywhere from "You are an adult and this is your house, too. Clean up after yourself like an adult who owns a house." to what is common in our house, "Housework gets done when it gets done. Fortunately we live in an area that doesn't have roaches." It is notable that the author does little more than speculate on his wife's expectations. After that many disagreements, not fully understanding the other person's expectations is a big red flag. We can argue all day long as to whose responsibility the understanding is; that is also a big red flag. 2. It's not about the work you do, it's about the work you make. This one is a big deal to me, since I grew up in a family that expected me to clean up after them. All the laundry, dishes, yard and additional housework was my job starting when I was 10. And no matter how well or poorly I did, chances were high that I was going to get hit for something. Note that the author does not provide any of this context. His wife very well may have been looking forward to spending the rest of her life with a partner who was an adult who didn't leave crap laying around, knowing that it would somehow magically reappear clean in its designated storage location. Or she could just be uptight. 3. No relationship of any kind is fire and forget. It is a daily commitment to a complicated matrix of rules and accommodations, all of which has a cost. If a person does the cost/benefit analysis of doing this work and decides it's not worth it, hurt feelings and financial implications aside, it's not worth it. This is not only true of marriages, it's also the case for friendships, family, employers and coworkers. We're making hundreds of these calculations every day. It's a thing we do to feel safe. When the benefit does not outweigh the cost, you don't feel safe. That's bad for everyone's health. 4. It takes 5 positive experiences of someone to reconcile one negative one. I think I read another comment that was adjacent to this. I see this as sort of an economy of deposits and withdrawals, and that's not a particularly original analogy. At the end of the day, we are social animals; both small and large gestures of allegiance foster an environment of safety and comfort. Our lizard brain needs these things. 5. Capuchin monkeys prefer grapes. Fairness is a reflex. It is not rational and does not respond to logic. Though I can respect, "I might want to use it again."
- jrm4 5y ago
  This is terrific, and resonates strongly. Pretty much only thing I'd perhaps slightly modify is that 5 to 1 deal; why this may not resonate with others is that you can come into it with a high or low threshold for this sort of thing based on lots of factors -- how you grew up yourself and certain social pressures may make you more sensitive to (or resilient to?) certain types of negativity. Point is, YMMV on that ratio. (but yeah, I do live where there's roaches, and it's definitely "do literally just enough so that there's no roaches" here ) :)

by jrm4 5y ago

captaincaveman 5y ago

hmmm marriages fail after 15 years too, at what point do you declare success?

jrm4 5y ago
Sure, good point -- but I'd guess that there's something like; the earlier the marriage fails, the more likely it's a "correctable behavior or habit" thing, as opposed to something like fundamental like "someone was getting their own identity wrong," or "deeply dramatic external change in circumstances?"
khazhoux 5y ago
It's not symmetric. Success is a constant work-in-progress.
zild3d 5y ago
I wonder if the lindy effect applies to marriages? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect

elptacek 5y ago

I'll bite. We're coming up on our 24th anniversary. I will likely regret this, but this is what I have learned. 1. Misery is a function of expectations management. As is said, every relationship is different. Expectations could range everywhere from "You are an adult and this is your house, too. Clean up after yourself like an adult who owns a house." to what is common in our house, "Housework gets done when it gets done. Fortunately we live in an area that doesn't have roaches." It is notable that the author does little more than speculate on his wife's expectations. After that many disagreements, not fully understanding the other person's expectations is a big red flag. We can argue all day long as to whose responsibility the understanding is; that is also a big red flag. 2. It's not about the work you do, it's about the work you make. This one is a big deal to me, since I grew up in a family that expected me to clean up after them. All the laundry, dishes, yard and additional housework was my job starting when I was 10. And no matter how well or poorly I did, chances were high that I was going to get hit for something. Note that the author does not provide any of this context. His wife very well may have been looking forward to spending the rest of her life with a partner who was an adult who didn't leave crap laying around, knowing that it would somehow magically reappear clean in its designated storage location. Or she could just be uptight. 3. No relationship of any kind is fire and forget. It is a daily commitment to a complicated matrix of rules and accommodations, all of which has a cost. If a person does the cost/benefit analysis of doing this work and decides it's not worth it, hurt feelings and financial implications aside, it's not worth it. This is not only true of marriages, it's also the case for friendships, family, employers and coworkers. We're making hundreds of these calculations every day. It's a thing we do to feel safe. When the benefit does not outweigh the cost, you don't feel safe. That's bad for everyone's health. 4. It takes 5 positive experiences of someone to reconcile one negative one. I think I read another comment that was adjacent to this. I see this as sort of an economy of deposits and withdrawals, and that's not a particularly original analogy. At the end of the day, we are social animals; both small and large gestures of allegiance foster an environment of safety and comfort. Our lizard brain needs these things. 5. Capuchin monkeys prefer grapes. Fairness is a reflex. It is not rational and does not respond to logic. Though I can respect, "I might want to use it again."

jrm4 5y ago
This is terrific, and resonates strongly. Pretty much only thing I'd perhaps slightly modify is that 5 to 1 deal; why this may not resonate with others is that you can come into it with a high or low threshold for this sort of thing based on lots of factors -- how you grew up yourself and certain social pressures may make you more sensitive to (or resilient to?) certain types of negativity. Point is, YMMV on that ratio. (but yeah, I do live where there's roaches, and it's definitely "do literally just enough so that there's no roaches" here ) :)