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This isn't about the dishes. The dishes are just a symptom of the unequal divide of emotional labour in most relationships. Even in relationships where both par

by Dobbs 4y ago

This isn't about the dishes. The dishes are just a symptom of the unequal divide of emotional labour in most relationships. Even in relationships where both parents work full time more often than not the majority of the mental and physical burden of running the house tends to fall onto the woman. Of course this isn't an absolute, but it does tend to hold true. You can see this at the outbreak of COVID where many women had to step back from jobs because they suddenly had a massively increased load of child care that by default fell onto their shoulders. The article is about someone coming to the realization of the ugly situation they are putting their spouse into, one that is extremely common. Don't try and devalue that by turning it into a "both sides" debacle.

em500 4y ago
The marriage lesson that I learned, not too late, is to hire domestic help pretty much as soon as we could afford it.
- Dobbs 4y ago
  If resources are there then yes I definitely agree. It makes a major difference in quality of life, particularly for myself and my partner who both struggle with ADHD.
giantg2 4y ago
"Even in relationships where both parents work full time more often than not the majority of the mental and physical burden of running the house tends to fall onto the woman." I'd love to see the data on this.
- Dobbs 4y ago
  If you look around for things about "emotional labor" or "unpaid labor". For example I found this from around 2014, it isn't strictly about dual income households, but there is data out there for that: > Around the world, women spend two to ten times more time on unpaid care work than men. Source: https://www.oecd.org/Dev/Development-Gender/Unpaid_Care_Work.Pdf https://www.oecd.org/Dev/Development-Gender/Unpaid_Care_Work...
  - giantg2 4y ago
    Any source for US or other developed countries? And of course the dual income is important too. Of course in developing nations or other scenarios with stay at home women will see them doing more unpaid work. I'd imagine it's similar for a brief time in developed countries when women leave the workforce to have children too. At least in my experience it seems division of overall labor is generally equal for the relationships I have seen.
    - sjostrom7 4y ago
      https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/09/24/among-u-s-couples-women-do-more-cooking-and-grocery-shopping-than-men/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/09/24/among-u-s-c... https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/25/for-american-couples-gender-gaps-in-sharing-household-responsibilities-persist-amid-pandemic/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/25/for-america... https://news.gallup.com/poll/283979/women-handle-main-household-tasks.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/283979/women-handle-main-househ... Anecdotally, I have a fairly progressive friend circle and I still think, between talking to different halves of a given hetero couple, it seems like the man tends to exaggerate how much he does around the house, how much childcare he does, how self-motivated he is to do so, etc. When asked, these men will enthusiastically agree that the split should be even when both partners are working, but walking the walk is understandably tougher. These patterns don't disappear within a generation, unfortunately. If I only spoke to the men, I'd have the same impression you do.
      - giantg2 4y ago
        So, for link number one... I guess we have to define if we are measuring work by hours or by tasks completed. It's possible that some of those men are cooking as many meals but that they spend less time doing it. Secondly, and more importantly, that article is about only a single area. I want to see overall breakdown of all the work/chores. The article hints at women working fewer paid hours. That's an area that should be more thoroughly investigated, as whoever is working fewer hours at a job is more likely to be doing more chores to contribute equally. For the second article, it seems to be self-reported perceptions and not actual measurements. Again, it only deals with limited categories. Of course if we are looking at chores that are traditionally "women's work", some of that bias may carry over. Likewise, handyman work, appliance repair, mechanic work, paperwork, yard work, etc that are traditionally "men's work" are likely to still have more men than women saying they spend more time on that. The third article is more what I was looking for. It's still perception based but it takes into account a wider array of tasks. It also shows how working status and income play a role. It also backs up my theory that the bias extends the other way on the traditional "men's work" portions. So we aren't going to see that grey line hit 100% in every category, and for good reason. Specialization of labor leads to efficiency. So task assignment or self-assignemnt will go to the person who is more interested in or better at that task. I would have liked to see an overall category to see how close the overall chore and work breakdown would be to 50/50. That's really the meat of the issue - equally contributing, even if the underlying tasks are divied up. Otherwise, we can cherry pick tasks like mechanic work or dishes to fit whatever narrative we want.
- david38 4y ago
  Not all full time work is equal. I’ll bet whoever has the more draining job cares a lot less about the household.
- cassac 4y ago
  This is of course anecdotal, but I find many people (of all genders) like to complain when people don’t do it the way they want, and when they can’t micro manage, they get upset. If you just want it done then delegate. If you want it done YOUR way then YOU have to do it. For example my wife always makes it sound like finding shoes for the kids is the same as planning a trip to the moon. If I say I’m going to get them shoes she says I can’t be trusted. I don’t care, the kids don’t care, but boy does it stress her out every time their feet grow.
- brimble 4y ago
  Guys make up for it by doing the majority of the household tasks with the highest likelihoods to kill or maim the person doing it. (Mostly joking. But only mostly.)
david38 4y ago
It’s not an unequal divide in emotional labor. He is doing what he sees fit, but she requires much more. If I’m content to live at level 10, so do level 5 work, I’m not being lazy. If she requires living at level 20, she will then need to do level 15 work. She will view him as slacking off, but in reality, he isn’t. They just have different standards. It is no more correct for her to force him to level 20 as for him to force her to level 10. It’s simply an incompatibility that they didn’t consider when marrying.
lhorie 4y ago
Yeah, gonna have to agree with you here. The guy appears to be downplaying his role by trying to make it a narrative about glasses by the dishwasher, but if you were to hear the wife's perspective being boiled down to "I am not your maid", that would put things in a very different light. Then, it's not about glasses or socks or messy storage spaces or how inconsequential any of those seem to any particular person, it's about who has to pick up the slack and why. If anyone here is a guy finding themselves siding with the guy in this story, one way to "see things from the other side" is to imagine a scenario that is traditionally reversed in terms of gender roles. For example a scenario where your partner leaves hair clogging the bathtub and you have to clean up after them every time. And go buy drano and get dirty plunging the drain for 5 minutes every once in a blue moon. After repeatedly complaining about the issue for over a decade. "What do you mean I never clean up, I do my best to try to remember to do it. It's not a big deal. The pipes being old aren't my fault" they say every time. Be honest and tell me your immediate armchair solution isn't to bail out of that relationship.
- lubesGordi 4y ago
  No, it's always the person who isn't communicating their wishes and building up resentment over time that is at fault. If they were communicating their wishes and the other person was saying no, I'm not doing that, well then that's something different. If you say, 'this is important to me' and I don't naturally see it as important, it's my job to take your perspective into account. If I actually care about you, this is a non-issue (I don't want you to suffer!). If a million things are 'important to you' and you need everything done now, well then there's reasonableness issues there. These issues can get sliced a million different ways and its the emotional intelligence matchup (or corresponding sacrifice) of the two parties that's going to decide which way it goes.
cgriswald 4y ago
The problem with the marriage was that he ignored all these things that were various levels of important to his wife rather than take the opportunity to show her that she was important to him. Unequal division of labor could explain why the dishes were important to her; but that's not in the article and it's not what the article about. I think an unequal division of labor is largely orthogonal. In my failed marriage, I carried the greater burden by far. Yet it was my ex who had the thought "you don't do X, so you don't love me."
chasingthewind 4y ago
I don't think you're using the term "Emotional Labor" in the usual sense [0] "Emotional labor is the process of managing feelings and expressions to fulfill the emotional requirements of a job." I do see people broaden the meaning of this term to mean almost anything that women do above and beyond a fair split of work, but I think your argument would be clearer if you just to it as the unequal divide of "housework" or some other term. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_labor
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  I think the correct term here is "Cognitive labour" not "Emotional Labor" https://behavioralscientist.org/how-couples-share-cognitive-labor-and-why-it-matters/ https://behavioralscientist.org/how-couples-share-cognitive-... https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/what-is-the-mental-load https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/what-is-the-mental-lo... In other words if I actually do put the dishes away and take the trash out, _but only when asked to_; then my partner would be within their rights to tell me to grow up and do the necessary when it obviously needs doing, to stop being passive and share some of the "Cognitive labour" of worrying about the to-do-list. And if I don't even do it when asked ... well then I'm just adding to their cognitive labour.
kraftman 4y ago
I think there are two seperate issues. One is the dishes, and the divide of labour. Of course both of those should be equal in the way that both people deem fair. The second is about respect and attitude and empathy towards your partner. It's about remembering that something is a bigger deal to your partner than it is to you. I like to look after my electronics so they'll last a long time, my wife is less careful with them and sometimes that bugs me, but I know that it's just not on her radar the same way its on mine. If it gets bad we discuss it and try and reach a compromise. The same goes for loads of other things too: if you go into it assuming the best of your partner not the worst you'll have a completely different relationship, and different discussions about how to solve the problem.

by Dobbs 4y ago

em500 4y ago

The marriage lesson that I learned, not too late, is to hire domestic help pretty much as soon as we could afford it.

Dobbs 4y ago
If resources are there then yes I definitely agree. It makes a major difference in quality of life, particularly for myself and my partner who both struggle with ADHD.

giantg2 4y ago

"Even in relationships where both parents work full time more often than not the majority of the mental and physical burden of running the house tends to fall onto the woman." I'd love to see the data on this.

Dobbs 4y ago
If you look around for things about "emotional labor" or "unpaid labor". For example I found this from around 2014, it isn't strictly about dual income households, but there is data out there for that: > Around the world, women spend two to ten times more time on unpaid care work than men. Source: https://www.oecd.org/Dev/Development-Gender/Unpaid_Care_Work.Pdf https://www.oecd.org/Dev/Development-Gender/Unpaid_Care_Work...
- giantg2 4y ago
  Any source for US or other developed countries? And of course the dual income is important too. Of course in developing nations or other scenarios with stay at home women will see them doing more unpaid work. I'd imagine it's similar for a brief time in developed countries when women leave the workforce to have children too. At least in my experience it seems division of overall labor is generally equal for the relationships I have seen.
  - sjostrom7 4y ago
    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/09/24/among-u-s-couples-women-do-more-cooking-and-grocery-shopping-than-men/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/09/24/among-u-s-c... https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/25/for-american-couples-gender-gaps-in-sharing-household-responsibilities-persist-amid-pandemic/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/01/25/for-america... https://news.gallup.com/poll/283979/women-handle-main-household-tasks.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/283979/women-handle-main-househ... Anecdotally, I have a fairly progressive friend circle and I still think, between talking to different halves of a given hetero couple, it seems like the man tends to exaggerate how much he does around the house, how much childcare he does, how self-motivated he is to do so, etc. When asked, these men will enthusiastically agree that the split should be even when both partners are working, but walking the walk is understandably tougher. These patterns don't disappear within a generation, unfortunately. If I only spoke to the men, I'd have the same impression you do.
    - giantg2 4y ago
      So, for link number one... I guess we have to define if we are measuring work by hours or by tasks completed. It's possible that some of those men are cooking as many meals but that they spend less time doing it. Secondly, and more importantly, that article is about only a single area. I want to see overall breakdown of all the work/chores. The article hints at women working fewer paid hours. That's an area that should be more thoroughly investigated, as whoever is working fewer hours at a job is more likely to be doing more chores to contribute equally. For the second article, it seems to be self-reported perceptions and not actual measurements. Again, it only deals with limited categories. Of course if we are looking at chores that are traditionally "women's work", some of that bias may carry over. Likewise, handyman work, appliance repair, mechanic work, paperwork, yard work, etc that are traditionally "men's work" are likely to still have more men than women saying they spend more time on that. The third article is more what I was looking for. It's still perception based but it takes into account a wider array of tasks. It also shows how working status and income play a role. It also backs up my theory that the bias extends the other way on the traditional "men's work" portions. So we aren't going to see that grey line hit 100% in every category, and for good reason. Specialization of labor leads to efficiency. So task assignment or self-assignemnt will go to the person who is more interested in or better at that task. I would have liked to see an overall category to see how close the overall chore and work breakdown would be to 50/50. That's really the meat of the issue - equally contributing, even if the underlying tasks are divied up. Otherwise, we can cherry pick tasks like mechanic work or dishes to fit whatever narrative we want.
david38 4y ago
Not all full time work is equal. I’ll bet whoever has the more draining job cares a lot less about the household.
cassac 4y ago
This is of course anecdotal, but I find many people (of all genders) like to complain when people don’t do it the way they want, and when they can’t micro manage, they get upset. If you just want it done then delegate. If you want it done YOUR way then YOU have to do it. For example my wife always makes it sound like finding shoes for the kids is the same as planning a trip to the moon. If I say I’m going to get them shoes she says I can’t be trusted. I don’t care, the kids don’t care, but boy does it stress her out every time their feet grow.
brimble 4y ago
Guys make up for it by doing the majority of the household tasks with the highest likelihoods to kill or maim the person doing it. (Mostly joking. But only mostly.)

david38 4y ago

It’s not an unequal divide in emotional labor. He is doing what he sees fit, but she requires much more. If I’m content to live at level 10, so do level 5 work, I’m not being lazy. If she requires living at level 20, she will then need to do level 15 work. She will view him as slacking off, but in reality, he isn’t. They just have different standards. It is no more correct for her to force him to level 20 as for him to force her to level 10. It’s simply an incompatibility that they didn’t consider when marrying.

lhorie 4y ago

Yeah, gonna have to agree with you here. The guy appears to be downplaying his role by trying to make it a narrative about glasses by the dishwasher, but if you were to hear the wife's perspective being boiled down to "I am not your maid", that would put things in a very different light. Then, it's not about glasses or socks or messy storage spaces or how inconsequential any of those seem to any particular person, it's about who has to pick up the slack and why. If anyone here is a guy finding themselves siding with the guy in this story, one way to "see things from the other side" is to imagine a scenario that is traditionally reversed in terms of gender roles. For example a scenario where your partner leaves hair clogging the bathtub and you have to clean up after them every time. And go buy drano and get dirty plunging the drain for 5 minutes every once in a blue moon. After repeatedly complaining about the issue for over a decade. "What do you mean I never clean up, I do my best to try to remember to do it. It's not a big deal. The pipes being old aren't my fault" they say every time. Be honest and tell me your immediate armchair solution isn't to bail out of that relationship.

lubesGordi 4y ago
No, it's always the person who isn't communicating their wishes and building up resentment over time that is at fault. If they were communicating their wishes and the other person was saying no, I'm not doing that, well then that's something different. If you say, 'this is important to me' and I don't naturally see it as important, it's my job to take your perspective into account. If I actually care about you, this is a non-issue (I don't want you to suffer!). If a million things are 'important to you' and you need everything done now, well then there's reasonableness issues there. These issues can get sliced a million different ways and its the emotional intelligence matchup (or corresponding sacrifice) of the two parties that's going to decide which way it goes.

cgriswald 4y ago

The problem with the marriage was that he ignored all these things that were various levels of important to his wife rather than take the opportunity to show her that she was important to him. Unequal division of labor could explain why the dishes were important to her; but that's not in the article and it's not what the article about. I think an unequal division of labor is largely orthogonal. In my failed marriage, I carried the greater burden by far. Yet it was my ex who had the thought "you don't do X, so you don't love me."

chasingthewind 4y ago

I don't think you're using the term "Emotional Labor" in the usual sense [0] "Emotional labor is the process of managing feelings and expressions to fulfill the emotional requirements of a job." I do see people broaden the meaning of this term to mean almost anything that women do above and beyond a fair split of work, but I think your argument would be clearer if you just to it as the unequal divide of "housework" or some other term. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_labor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_labor

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
I think the correct term here is "Cognitive labour" not "Emotional Labor" https://behavioralscientist.org/how-couples-share-cognitive-labor-and-why-it-matters/ https://behavioralscientist.org/how-couples-share-cognitive-... https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/what-is-the-mental-load https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/what-is-the-mental-lo... In other words if I actually do put the dishes away and take the trash out, _but only when asked to_; then my partner would be within their rights to tell me to grow up and do the necessary when it obviously needs doing, to stop being passive and share some of the "Cognitive labour" of worrying about the to-do-list. And if I don't even do it when asked ... well then I'm just adding to their cognitive labour.

kraftman 4y ago

I think there are two seperate issues. One is the dishes, and the divide of labour. Of course both of those should be equal in the way that both people deem fair. The second is about respect and attitude and empathy towards your partner. It's about remembering that something is a bigger deal to your partner than it is to you. I like to look after my electronics so they'll last a long time, my wife is less careful with them and sometimes that bugs me, but I know that it's just not on her radar the same way its on mine. If it gets bad we discuss it and try and reach a compromise. The same goes for loads of other things too: if you go into it assuming the best of your partner not the worst you'll have a completely different relationship, and different discussions about how to solve the problem.