5 ms·

Seems like Form Energy has come up with a better method, also iron-based but no combustion. https://formenergy.com/technology/ https://formenergy.com/technolog

by jpm_sd 5y ago

Seems like Form Energy has come up with a better method, also iron-based but no combustion. https://formenergy.com/technology/ https://formenergy.com/technology/

AndrewDucker 5y ago
What's their efficiency? I can't find anything on their site.
- otherotherchris 5y ago
  They claim ~65% round trip currently and think they can improve to 75%. Not great, but polysilicon solar panels are cheap cheap cheap so charging efficiency doesn't matter much. It's being sold as a complementary solution to more efficient LFP cells (for evening peak shifting), and as an alternative to pumped hydro and peaking gas turbines.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    That's just it, 65 - 75% efficiency is still a lot better than having it wasted or end up on the market at negative value for power wasters like crypto farms and Facebook datacenters to just use up.
    - cinntaile 5y ago
      It's better for crypto farms and Facebook datacenters to use the energy instead, the efficiency is higher. If it would be wasted then it would be worse than this solution.
      - ncmncm 5y ago
        The efficiency of crypto farms and Facebook is zero if not negative: energy in, dystopia out. It would be better to waste the energy than to let them have it for free.
        cinntaile 5y ago
        That's ideology, I'm talking about physics.
        cogman10 5y ago
        When you say something is "better" you are talking ideology, not physics. Why is crypto "better" than literally any other application which could use excess energy production? For example, carbon sequestration.
        cinntaile 5y ago
        It's not that crypto is better, it's that using it directly is better from an efficiency point of view. If you used it for carbon sequestration that would also be better compared to converting it and retaining 65-75% of the energy before using it.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        It all depends on what you would have used the 65-75% of it on, later. Used at 65% to displace carbon emission overnight would be overwhelmingly better than for crypto or Facebook.
  - AndrewDucker 5y ago
    That's great. I hope they can scale it up and mass-manufacture it.
    - otherotherchris 5y ago
      Pretty much every iron chemistry has failed to reach market. I reckon they're probably just blowing smoke. I really want them to succeed for the sake of the planet, but it's another "revolutionary new battery just five years away" story.
      - philipkglass 5y ago
        They're still shipping small volumes but ESS Inc. has at least delivered some of their iron-based flow batteries: https://essinc.com/ https://essinc.com/
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        They're one step ahead of the vaporware stuff you normally read about in that they are already operating at a scale worth noticing (no long lab level power but 100's of KW) and they are about to scale up to 5MW which will be a very important proof point if it can be done economically and reliably enough.
  - andrewmutz 5y ago
    I completely agree about efficiency. For managing solar's "duck curve", efficiency is less important than cost. As solar gets cheaper and cheaper, the ability to mitigate efficiency loss by just increasing the size of the solar installation gets easier and easier.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      And HVDC lines coupling areas far away from each other can help to deal with overcast and even offset some of the day/night cycle.
somethoughts 5y ago
Interesting lecture from one of the co-founders of Form Energy The Future of Energy Storage - Professor Yet-Ming Chiang, MIT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E76q-9q7ZDg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E76q-9q7ZDg Professor Yet-Ming Chiang, one of the world’s most prominent researchers in energy storage, will give a personal perspective on some of the challenges and opportunities for better and cheaper energy storage. From a historical perspective, battery performance has improved steadily, but now the divergent needs for batteries in high energy density applications such as EVs (and, coming soon, electric aviation), and those for grid storage, which emphasizes ultra-low cost and earth-abundant materials, are becoming clear. He will give examples of emerging innovations that may address these different needs, including solid-state and other batteries that use alkali metal electrodes, and approaches that make use of the most widely available electroactive elements. Battery technologies are notoriously difficult to scale given high technology risk and high development costs. Yet-Ming will share some of the unique lessons learned at startups he has co-founded, including A123, 24M, and most recently Form Energy.
- somethoughts 5y ago
  Georgia Power explores multiday battery project with Form Energy https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/georgia-power-explores-multiday-battery-project-with-form-energy-68821181 https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights...
- jacquesm 5y ago
  A123 went bankrupt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A123_Systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A123_Systems

by jpm_sd 5y ago

Seems like Form Energy has come up with a better method, also iron-based but no combustion. https://formenergy.com/technology/ https://formenergy.com/technology/

AndrewDucker 5y ago

What's their efficiency? I can't find anything on their site.

otherotherchris 5y ago
They claim ~65% round trip currently and think they can improve to 75%. Not great, but polysilicon solar panels are cheap cheap cheap so charging efficiency doesn't matter much. It's being sold as a complementary solution to more efficient LFP cells (for evening peak shifting), and as an alternative to pumped hydro and peaking gas turbines.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  That's just it, 65 - 75% efficiency is still a lot better than having it wasted or end up on the market at negative value for power wasters like crypto farms and Facebook datacenters to just use up.
  - cinntaile 5y ago
    It's better for crypto farms and Facebook datacenters to use the energy instead, the efficiency is higher. If it would be wasted then it would be worse than this solution.
    - ncmncm 5y ago
      The efficiency of crypto farms and Facebook is zero if not negative: energy in, dystopia out. It would be better to waste the energy than to let them have it for free.
      - cinntaile 5y ago
        That's ideology, I'm talking about physics.
        cogman10 5y ago
        When you say something is "better" you are talking ideology, not physics. Why is crypto "better" than literally any other application which could use excess energy production? For example, carbon sequestration.
        cinntaile 5y ago
        It's not that crypto is better, it's that using it directly is better from an efficiency point of view. If you used it for carbon sequestration that would also be better compared to converting it and retaining 65-75% of the energy before using it.
        ncmncm 5y ago
        It all depends on what you would have used the 65-75% of it on, later. Used at 65% to displace carbon emission overnight would be overwhelmingly better than for crypto or Facebook.
- AndrewDucker 5y ago
  That's great. I hope they can scale it up and mass-manufacture it.
  - otherotherchris 5y ago
    Pretty much every iron chemistry has failed to reach market. I reckon they're probably just blowing smoke. I really want them to succeed for the sake of the planet, but it's another "revolutionary new battery just five years away" story.
    - philipkglass 5y ago
      They're still shipping small volumes but ESS Inc. has at least delivered some of their iron-based flow batteries: https://essinc.com/ https://essinc.com/
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      They're one step ahead of the vaporware stuff you normally read about in that they are already operating at a scale worth noticing (no long lab level power but 100's of KW) and they are about to scale up to 5MW which will be a very important proof point if it can be done economically and reliably enough.
- andrewmutz 5y ago
  I completely agree about efficiency. For managing solar's "duck curve", efficiency is less important than cost. As solar gets cheaper and cheaper, the ability to mitigate efficiency loss by just increasing the size of the solar installation gets easier and easier.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    And HVDC lines coupling areas far away from each other can help to deal with overcast and even offset some of the day/night cycle.

somethoughts 5y ago

Interesting lecture from one of the co-founders of Form Energy The Future of Energy Storage - Professor Yet-Ming Chiang, MIT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E76q-9q7ZDg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E76q-9q7ZDg Professor Yet-Ming Chiang, one of the world’s most prominent researchers in energy storage, will give a personal perspective on some of the challenges and opportunities for better and cheaper energy storage. From a historical perspective, battery performance has improved steadily, but now the divergent needs for batteries in high energy density applications such as EVs (and, coming soon, electric aviation), and those for grid storage, which emphasizes ultra-low cost and earth-abundant materials, are becoming clear. He will give examples of emerging innovations that may address these different needs, including solid-state and other batteries that use alkali metal electrodes, and approaches that make use of the most widely available electroactive elements. Battery technologies are notoriously difficult to scale given high technology risk and high development costs. Yet-Ming will share some of the unique lessons learned at startups he has co-founded, including A123, 24M, and most recently Form Energy.

somethoughts 5y ago
Georgia Power explores multiday battery project with Form Energy https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/georgia-power-explores-multiday-battery-project-with-form-energy-68821181 https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights...
jacquesm 5y ago
A123 went bankrupt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A123_Systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A123_Systems