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> Also: obligatory "not your keys, not your coins" and "don't keep your coins on an exchange". Unless lobbying can still stop it the EU parlement will outlaw s

by vimy 4y ago

> Also: obligatory "not your keys, not your coins" and "don't keep your coins on an exchange". Unless lobbying can still stop it the EU parlement will outlaw self hosted wallets. Only coins on exchanges will be allowed.

reedjosh 4y ago
That's just evil, but also, likely not terribly enforceable. It would just bring crypto back to its roots as a government resistant alt currency. Being uncontrollable was the whole point. Particularly regarding Bitcoin and Monero.
- lxgr 4y ago
  At least at this point in time, if you control all of the on/off-ramps, you can very effectively make any cryptocurrency non-viable as money.
  - reedjosh 4y ago
    I think it could slow adoption, but I've been primarily buying offline. Soon I'll have a lightning node too--improving my BTC privacy. Defi exchanges are the next major advancement to government resistance as well. This space would rapidly mature under government regulating away self custody.
    - lxgr 4y ago
      If all of that ends up working out, and considering no other restrictions are put in place: How are people going to pay their taxes? Being the exclusive currency accepted for tax payment is an important part of what makes fiat currencies money.
      - matheusmoreira 4y ago
        > How are people going to pay their taxes The government is going to have to suck it up and accept taxes in cryptocurrency. In my country such laws have already been proposed.
        reedjosh 4y ago
        I love this. Yeah, they'll have to allow for off ramps or accept crypto for tax payments. I say have to as otherwise a rich private currency economy will grow unmolested by tax collectors.
        matheusmoreira 4y ago
        > rich private currency economy will grow unmolested by tax collectors Honestly I wouldn't mind that either. Governments in general are absurdly corrupt and taxes finance that corruption the same way drug users finance cartels.
lxgr 4y ago
> EU parlement will outlaw self hosted wallets Isn't it self-hosted anonymous wallets?
- vimy 4y ago
  Yes but it’s gonna unworkable in practice to verify your own wallets. It’s a de facto ban.
  - nybble41 4y ago
    It's hardly "unworkable". There are already systems in place for verifying your own wallets; you just need to sign a message using your key to verify that the wallet is actually yours. So far I haven't seen any proposed rules about what you can do with the crypto once it's in your wallet, so all this means is that you need to withdraw to your own wallet first before sending the funds anywhere you want.
    - vimy 4y ago
      So how does it work? Where do I link my national ID to my wallet and how do I tell the government about it?
      - nybble41 4y ago
        The national ID link happens at the exchange, via the normal KYC process. You prove your identity to the exchange, and you prove that you have the private key for the wallet by signing a challenge message. That's it. The relevant proposed regulations can be found here[0] (linked from [1]): > (29) This Regulation applies not only to transfers of crypto-assets where both the crypto-asset service provider of the originator and beneficiary are involved but also to transfers of crypto-assets to or from a distributed ledger address not linked to a crypto-asset service provider, so called “unhosted wallets”, as long as there is at least one crypto-asset service provider involved in the transfer of crypto-assets. > (29a) In cases of a transfer of crypto-assets made from or to a distributed ledger address not linked to a crypto-asset service provider, the crypto-asset service provider will have to obtain information both on the originator and the beneficiary, usually from their customer. However, the crypto-asset service provider will have to verify the accuracy of only the information on their customer and not on the originator or beneficiary with the distributed ledger address not linked to a crypto-asset service provider. So when a transfer is made to or from an external, non-hosted wallet the exchange is responsible for identifying the wallet's owner. Also note this clause in the proposed text of the regulation (under Article 2 paragraph 4): > This Regulation shall not apply to person-to-person transfer of crypto-assets as defined in Article 3(14) of this Regulation. So transfers between two unhosted wallets are unaffected. This regulation has been widely misreported, so don't believe everything you read, especially if it doesn't cite the actual text of the regulation. [0] https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-14259-2021-INIT/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-14259-2021-... [1] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021/12/01/anti-money-laundering-council-agrees-its-negotiating-mandate-on-transparency-of-crypto-asset-transfers/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021...
deleted 4y ago
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rsync 4y ago
"Unless lobbying can still stop it the EU parlement will outlaw self hosted wallets." Absurd and laughable. I can't wait to start printing and handing out long random numbers. Now what ?

by vimy 4y ago

reedjosh 4y ago

That's just evil, but also, likely not terribly enforceable. It would just bring crypto back to its roots as a government resistant alt currency. Being uncontrollable was the whole point. Particularly regarding Bitcoin and Monero.

lxgr 4y ago
At least at this point in time, if you control all of the on/off-ramps, you can very effectively make any cryptocurrency non-viable as money.
- reedjosh 4y ago
  I think it could slow adoption, but I've been primarily buying offline. Soon I'll have a lightning node too--improving my BTC privacy. Defi exchanges are the next major advancement to government resistance as well. This space would rapidly mature under government regulating away self custody.
  - lxgr 4y ago
    If all of that ends up working out, and considering no other restrictions are put in place: How are people going to pay their taxes? Being the exclusive currency accepted for tax payment is an important part of what makes fiat currencies money.
    - matheusmoreira 4y ago
      > How are people going to pay their taxes The government is going to have to suck it up and accept taxes in cryptocurrency. In my country such laws have already been proposed.
      - reedjosh 4y ago
        I love this. Yeah, they'll have to allow for off ramps or accept crypto for tax payments. I say have to as otherwise a rich private currency economy will grow unmolested by tax collectors.
        matheusmoreira 4y ago
        > rich private currency economy will grow unmolested by tax collectors Honestly I wouldn't mind that either. Governments in general are absurdly corrupt and taxes finance that corruption the same way drug users finance cartels.

lxgr 4y ago

> EU parlement will outlaw self hosted wallets Isn't it self-hosted anonymous wallets?

vimy 4y ago
Yes but it’s gonna unworkable in practice to verify your own wallets. It’s a de facto ban.
- nybble41 4y ago
  It's hardly "unworkable". There are already systems in place for verifying your own wallets; you just need to sign a message using your key to verify that the wallet is actually yours. So far I haven't seen any proposed rules about what you can do with the crypto once it's in your wallet, so all this means is that you need to withdraw to your own wallet first before sending the funds anywhere you want.
  - vimy 4y ago
    So how does it work? Where do I link my national ID to my wallet and how do I tell the government about it?
    - nybble41 4y ago
      The national ID link happens at the exchange, via the normal KYC process. You prove your identity to the exchange, and you prove that you have the private key for the wallet by signing a challenge message. That's it. The relevant proposed regulations can be found here[0] (linked from [1]): > (29) This Regulation applies not only to transfers of crypto-assets where both the crypto-asset service provider of the originator and beneficiary are involved but also to transfers of crypto-assets to or from a distributed ledger address not linked to a crypto-asset service provider, so called “unhosted wallets”, as long as there is at least one crypto-asset service provider involved in the transfer of crypto-assets. > (29a) In cases of a transfer of crypto-assets made from or to a distributed ledger address not linked to a crypto-asset service provider, the crypto-asset service provider will have to obtain information both on the originator and the beneficiary, usually from their customer. However, the crypto-asset service provider will have to verify the accuracy of only the information on their customer and not on the originator or beneficiary with the distributed ledger address not linked to a crypto-asset service provider. So when a transfer is made to or from an external, non-hosted wallet the exchange is responsible for identifying the wallet's owner. Also note this clause in the proposed text of the regulation (under Article 2 paragraph 4): > This Regulation shall not apply to person-to-person transfer of crypto-assets as defined in Article 3(14) of this Regulation. So transfers between two unhosted wallets are unaffected. This regulation has been widely misreported, so don't believe everything you read, especially if it doesn't cite the actual text of the regulation. [0] https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-14259-2021-INIT/en/pdf https://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-14259-2021-... [1] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021/12/01/anti-money-laundering-council-agrees-its-negotiating-mandate-on-transparency-of-crypto-asset-transfers/ https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2021...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rsync 4y ago

"Unless lobbying can still stop it the EU parlement will outlaw self hosted wallets." Absurd and laughable. I can't wait to start printing and handing out long random numbers. Now what ?