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Based on both my observations of the space and interaction with crypto people and the crypto market. I know people who work in crypto too. Your defensive kneej

Based on both my observations of the space and interaction with crypto people and the crypto market. I know people who work in crypto too. Your defensive kneejerk reaction doesn't serve as an opposing argument - if you think differently, all you need to do is provide some evidence.

carmen_sandiego 4y ago
I mean, most legit exchanges are not 'rooted' in scams, even if some of their employees take advantage. The only way you could say Coinbase were 'rooted' in that is to assume your premise: that crypto itself is a scam.
- beaconstudios 4y ago
  I don't think most exchanges are rooted in scams no - I'd say they're rooted in a greater fool scheme, given that the main purpose of buying crypto is to sell it for profit and it isn't really used for exchange outside a few niches like darknet markets.
  - carmen_sandiego 4y ago
    Then I think you are assuming your premise/begging the question. You constructed the conditions in a way that leaves no room for a valid example. If you think crypto itself is a greater fool scheme then purely definitionally there can be no example of a non-greater-fool-rooted crypto business.
    - beaconstudios 4y ago
      This is what I've observed, it's not a prima facie assumption. I was initially optimistic when bitcoin came about. Most of the industry seems to be based on speculation and selling "x but on the blockchain" solutions to nonexistent problems. I also know people who are trying to use blockchain tech to solve real problems, but they're in the minority.
willmw101 4y ago
I'm not sure either of your comments are productive here. You assert that it would be hard to find any crypto business that isn't 'rooted in some kind of scam'. But where's the evidence that coinbase for e.g is 'rooted in a scam, greater fool scheme or ponzi'? There are scammy activities in so much of crypto, but what is pointing to the most visible, normie-facing, publicly traded and regulated American crypto company, being 'rooted' in scamming or ponzi schemes? Because this post suggests a bad actor within or close to the company, or at worst the company knowingly associating with sketchy tokens, rather than the entire company's activities being fundamentally rotten. I know HN likes to be extremely skeptical of crypto, often rightly so, but your comment isn't exactly nuanced.
- beaconstudios 4y ago
  I did address this in a sibling comment - the exchanges are primarily used to buy and sell crypto to greater fools, and thus they are rooted in a greater fool scheme. The vast majority of use for crypto is speculation.
  - willmw101 4y ago
    But you see, even if I did agree that that was the case that all exchanges are rotten, you originally said any crypto business. You think the various businesses that focus on staking, or cold wallet businesses for example, that focus on consolidation and/or security are 'rooted in scams, greater fool schemes, or ponzi'? How?
    - beaconstudios 4y ago
      Perhaps my original formulation was insufficiently precise to get my point across - I mean that crypto is rooted in scams and pyramid schemes and whatnot in the sense that the nature of the industry makes it a magnet for those kinds of schemes and they are the primary driving force behind the money flooding the industry. That doesn't mean that the exchanges themselves are explicitly doing these things, or that all the businesses are either directly engaged in or materially supporting this behaviour (though I think the majority are), but that it's the driving force of the industry in that transportation drives the oil extraction industry.
rvz 4y ago
> find a crypto business that isn't rooted in some kind of scam, greater fool scheme, pyramid scheme, or the like. > If you think differently, all you need to do is provide some evidence. So is this product a 'scam' then? [0] [1] [0] https://skiff.org https://skiff.org
- beaconstudios 4y ago
  It doesn't look like it, no. But what about that is actually using blockchains to solve a problem? They mention Web3 but I don't know if it's a requirement of some feature or an opportunity for a marketing buzzword. I don't deny that there are some companies that are trying to do real things with blockchain tech - but most of the money and effort appears to be going into speculation and/or scamming. Which isn't very productive.
- FabHK 4y ago
  Thanks, that looks interesting, but I don't see the connection to "crypto", except it being encrypted, laudably.
herendin 4y ago
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." (Christopher Hitchens) You made the assertion, you claim to have evidence: the onus is on you to provide that evidence, otherwise how can anyone possibly challenge it?
- beaconstudios 4y ago
  I don't claim to have the evidence, I claim to have made an observation. If the parent wanted to make a counterargument they could do, it wouldn't have to be concretely evidence based because I'm not holding a forum conversation to the epistemological standard of a formal paper or proof. Just a good example or argument would be more compelling than just calling my opinion a kneejerk reaction.
  - jakupovic 4y ago
    Maybe if you throw some more big words in, you will get your point across. Following this thread it is pretty evident that you don't have any evidence for your "all crypto is scam", and are pretty lost when asked for proof.
    - beaconstudios 4y ago
      - jakupovic 4y ago
        Calling me names is definitely not something that gets your point across. Pretty sure as we stand you have zero proff for your anti-crypto statements and are resorting to name calling. Definitely something frowned upon by HN.
        beaconstudios 4y ago
        If you want to say I have no proof that's fine, but I draw the line at sarcastic insults. So don't do that and I won't insult you back. I haven't collected evidence for my point because I'm not trying to make a court case - I've observed that most people seem to use crypto as a speculative investment, buying coins just to sell them to somebody else who's doing the same. Have you seen otherwise? Like, I don't want to have this negative perception of the industry, I generally prefer to see positive outcomes from these things, but I haven't observed much positive being produced from the industry. Surely if you're a big fan of the industry, you can demonstrate something good about it?
elefanten 4y ago
You asserted comically sweeping claims about an entire industry and nascent family of technologies being solely rooted in “scams” and “schemes”. Those two words usually have a higher burden of proof… unless you’re just putting on a rhetorical performance, that is. QED “unserious”

carmen_sandiego 4y ago

I mean, most legit exchanges are not 'rooted' in scams, even if some of their employees take advantage. The only way you could say Coinbase were 'rooted' in that is to assume your premise: that crypto itself is a scam.

beaconstudios 4y ago
I don't think most exchanges are rooted in scams no - I'd say they're rooted in a greater fool scheme, given that the main purpose of buying crypto is to sell it for profit and it isn't really used for exchange outside a few niches like darknet markets.
- carmen_sandiego 4y ago
  Then I think you are assuming your premise/begging the question. You constructed the conditions in a way that leaves no room for a valid example. If you think crypto itself is a greater fool scheme then purely definitionally there can be no example of a non-greater-fool-rooted crypto business.
  - beaconstudios 4y ago
    This is what I've observed, it's not a prima facie assumption. I was initially optimistic when bitcoin came about. Most of the industry seems to be based on speculation and selling "x but on the blockchain" solutions to nonexistent problems. I also know people who are trying to use blockchain tech to solve real problems, but they're in the minority.

willmw101 4y ago

I'm not sure either of your comments are productive here. You assert that it would be hard to find any crypto business that isn't 'rooted in some kind of scam'. But where's the evidence that coinbase for e.g is 'rooted in a scam, greater fool scheme or ponzi'? There are scammy activities in so much of crypto, but what is pointing to the most visible, normie-facing, publicly traded and regulated American crypto company, being 'rooted' in scamming or ponzi schemes? Because this post suggests a bad actor within or close to the company, or at worst the company knowingly associating with sketchy tokens, rather than the entire company's activities being fundamentally rotten. I know HN likes to be extremely skeptical of crypto, often rightly so, but your comment isn't exactly nuanced.

beaconstudios 4y ago
I did address this in a sibling comment - the exchanges are primarily used to buy and sell crypto to greater fools, and thus they are rooted in a greater fool scheme. The vast majority of use for crypto is speculation.
- willmw101 4y ago
  But you see, even if I did agree that that was the case that all exchanges are rotten, you originally said any crypto business. You think the various businesses that focus on staking, or cold wallet businesses for example, that focus on consolidation and/or security are 'rooted in scams, greater fool schemes, or ponzi'? How?
  - beaconstudios 4y ago
    Perhaps my original formulation was insufficiently precise to get my point across - I mean that crypto is rooted in scams and pyramid schemes and whatnot in the sense that the nature of the industry makes it a magnet for those kinds of schemes and they are the primary driving force behind the money flooding the industry. That doesn't mean that the exchanges themselves are explicitly doing these things, or that all the businesses are either directly engaged in or materially supporting this behaviour (though I think the majority are), but that it's the driving force of the industry in that transportation drives the oil extraction industry.

rvz 4y ago

> find a crypto business that isn't rooted in some kind of scam, greater fool scheme, pyramid scheme, or the like. > If you think differently, all you need to do is provide some evidence. So is this product a 'scam' then? [0] [1] [0] https://skiff.org https://skiff.org

beaconstudios 4y ago
It doesn't look like it, no. But what about that is actually using blockchains to solve a problem? They mention Web3 but I don't know if it's a requirement of some feature or an opportunity for a marketing buzzword. I don't deny that there are some companies that are trying to do real things with blockchain tech - but most of the money and effort appears to be going into speculation and/or scamming. Which isn't very productive.
FabHK 4y ago
Thanks, that looks interesting, but I don't see the connection to "crypto", except it being encrypted, laudably.

herendin 4y ago

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence." (Christopher Hitchens) You made the assertion, you claim to have evidence: the onus is on you to provide that evidence, otherwise how can anyone possibly challenge it?

beaconstudios 4y ago
I don't claim to have the evidence, I claim to have made an observation. If the parent wanted to make a counterargument they could do, it wouldn't have to be concretely evidence based because I'm not holding a forum conversation to the epistemological standard of a formal paper or proof. Just a good example or argument would be more compelling than just calling my opinion a kneejerk reaction.
- jakupovic 4y ago
  Maybe if you throw some more big words in, you will get your point across. Following this thread it is pretty evident that you don't have any evidence for your "all crypto is scam", and are pretty lost when asked for proof.
  - beaconstudios 4y ago
    - jakupovic 4y ago
      Calling me names is definitely not something that gets your point across. Pretty sure as we stand you have zero proff for your anti-crypto statements and are resorting to name calling. Definitely something frowned upon by HN.
      - beaconstudios 4y ago
        If you want to say I have no proof that's fine, but I draw the line at sarcastic insults. So don't do that and I won't insult you back. I haven't collected evidence for my point because I'm not trying to make a court case - I've observed that most people seem to use crypto as a speculative investment, buying coins just to sell them to somebody else who's doing the same. Have you seen otherwise? Like, I don't want to have this negative perception of the industry, I generally prefer to see positive outcomes from these things, but I haven't observed much positive being produced from the industry. Surely if you're a big fan of the industry, you can demonstrate something good about it?

elefanten 4y ago

You asserted comically sweeping claims about an entire industry and nascent family of technologies being solely rooted in “scams” and “schemes”. Those two words usually have a higher burden of proof… unless you’re just putting on a rhetorical performance, that is. QED “unserious”