3 ms·

I think they meant they are distinct. Not that they are mutually exclusive. Not necessarily orthogonal, but the idea is along the similar lines.

jimkleiber 5y ago
Haha I mean, yeah, at some point language abstracts and becomes more and more imprecise. Do I believe they're distinct? Sure. I think they can also blend together in one person and also that one person's self-hatred could be another's self-criticism. I could see it as a mutually agreed upon spectrum from self-hatred to self-love with different steps between, I could see self-criticism and self-hatred as separate, where criticism focuses on the actions and hatred on the person, I could see self-criticism as compared to self-curiosity, which may have an axis of certainty, from certain to uncertain and wanting to know. I often talk of critical vs curious vs connected, where curious is I don't know but I want to know, critical is I don't know and I need to know, and connected is I don't know and I don't need to know. But critical could also be I know vis-a-vis the others. But I don't know if these are necessarily true and universal and objective, but rather linguistic tools I've found to help me. I think there's a certain subjectivity to many of these things and I notice I have somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction when I hear someone ascribe an objectivity to something I believe has much more subjectivity.
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  self-criticism can cause self-hatred (appropriate or not) milk can cause a sour stomach milk is not a sour stomach
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    I think maybe we're defining self-criticism differently. From a paper from Clinical Psychology Review in 2020[0]: > Self-criticism is defined as the tendency to engage in negative self-evaluation that results in feelings of worthlessness, failure, and guilt when expectations are not met I see that quite a few other results in the DuckDuckGo search define self-criticism similarly, which doesn't sound so different from self-hatred. Psychology Today defines it as[1]: > Self-hatred encompasses continual feelings of inadequacy, guilt, and low self-esteem. People may constantly compare themselves to others, perceive only the negative and ignore the positive, and believe that they will never be "good enough." But every single person has worth and value—and the ability to cultivate self-love. So maybe I can see a difference in these definitions as self-criticism being the act of attacking oneself whereas self-hatred is thinking the one is worthy of attack? I don't know. However, I think you may be defining it more along the lines of looking at one's behaviors and trying to be very honest about the impacts of those behaviors, almost a systems thinking approach. "I do X, and Y seems to happen every time I do X, and I don't want Y to happen, so maybe I should do Z instead and see what happens" or something along those lines. This seems more in line with how this LifeHack article defines it[2]: > It is easy to hear the term “self-critical” and be immediately put off. After all, it’s difficult to be our own critics. However, utilizing self-criticism means taking a more self-aware path to ensure that you aren’t overlooking any possible areas of self-improvement. > Self-criticism affects your self-esteem and can be a useful tool to identify patterns of weakness that you can look to eradicate by adapting your behavior. I don't define self-criticism as such, I think it often involves labeling a behavior or more likely, myself, as good or bad, with a tendency towards bad. I struggle to think of "positive self-criticism," and so think that most self-criticism seems to be "You're stupid. What you did was idiotic. You're such a bad person," etc. If I were to define self-criticism similar to how I think you may be defining it, in terms of taking a more detached approach to honestly reflect on one's behavior and how it may cause harm to oneself or others, then I agree with what you said. I'm just guessing many people don't define it that way. I'm curious to hear how you define self-criticism and self-hatred and maybe some examples of what they look like to you. I also recognize this thread has become very long and maybe you don't want to reply anymore, and that's OK with me, too. I'm grateful you came this long with me and helped me explore this more. [0]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-criticism https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-critici... [1]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/self-hatred https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/self-hatred [2]: https://www.lifehack.org/863533/self-critical https://www.lifehack.org/863533/self-critical
    - recursivedoubts 5y ago
      traditionally (which is where Chesterton would be coming from) self-criticism is a rational assessment ones own failings (typically due to ones passions, which are by this definition irrational) self-hatred would be a potential emotional response to that assessment and may or may not be reasonable. a self-hating murderer may be on the right track, or at least on a better track than a self-justifying or indifferent murderer, although Chesterton would almost certainly make the obvious Christian point here i am not particularly versed in modern psychology, beyond what a reasonably educated layman would pick up in passing. i think the old timey folks like GKC had a better handle on what makes people happy, in the greek sense of that term, and I view self-criticism as an important aspect of that happiness in order to rationally assess ones situation and make improvements to it

jimkleiber 5y ago

Haha I mean, yeah, at some point language abstracts and becomes more and more imprecise. Do I believe they're distinct? Sure. I think they can also blend together in one person and also that one person's self-hatred could be another's self-criticism. I could see it as a mutually agreed upon spectrum from self-hatred to self-love with different steps between, I could see self-criticism and self-hatred as separate, where criticism focuses on the actions and hatred on the person, I could see self-criticism as compared to self-curiosity, which may have an axis of certainty, from certain to uncertain and wanting to know. I often talk of critical vs curious vs connected, where curious is I don't know but I want to know, critical is I don't know and I need to know, and connected is I don't know and I don't need to know. But critical could also be I know vis-a-vis the others. But I don't know if these are necessarily true and universal and objective, but rather linguistic tools I've found to help me. I think there's a certain subjectivity to many of these things and I notice I have somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction when I hear someone ascribe an objectivity to something I believe has much more subjectivity.

recursivedoubts 5y ago
self-criticism can cause self-hatred (appropriate or not) milk can cause a sour stomach milk is not a sour stomach
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  I think maybe we're defining self-criticism differently. From a paper from Clinical Psychology Review in 2020[0]: > Self-criticism is defined as the tendency to engage in negative self-evaluation that results in feelings of worthlessness, failure, and guilt when expectations are not met I see that quite a few other results in the DuckDuckGo search define self-criticism similarly, which doesn't sound so different from self-hatred. Psychology Today defines it as[1]: > Self-hatred encompasses continual feelings of inadequacy, guilt, and low self-esteem. People may constantly compare themselves to others, perceive only the negative and ignore the positive, and believe that they will never be "good enough." But every single person has worth and value—and the ability to cultivate self-love. So maybe I can see a difference in these definitions as self-criticism being the act of attacking oneself whereas self-hatred is thinking the one is worthy of attack? I don't know. However, I think you may be defining it more along the lines of looking at one's behaviors and trying to be very honest about the impacts of those behaviors, almost a systems thinking approach. "I do X, and Y seems to happen every time I do X, and I don't want Y to happen, so maybe I should do Z instead and see what happens" or something along those lines. This seems more in line with how this LifeHack article defines it[2]: > It is easy to hear the term “self-critical” and be immediately put off. After all, it’s difficult to be our own critics. However, utilizing self-criticism means taking a more self-aware path to ensure that you aren’t overlooking any possible areas of self-improvement. > Self-criticism affects your self-esteem and can be a useful tool to identify patterns of weakness that you can look to eradicate by adapting your behavior. I don't define self-criticism as such, I think it often involves labeling a behavior or more likely, myself, as good or bad, with a tendency towards bad. I struggle to think of "positive self-criticism," and so think that most self-criticism seems to be "You're stupid. What you did was idiotic. You're such a bad person," etc. If I were to define self-criticism similar to how I think you may be defining it, in terms of taking a more detached approach to honestly reflect on one's behavior and how it may cause harm to oneself or others, then I agree with what you said. I'm just guessing many people don't define it that way. I'm curious to hear how you define self-criticism and self-hatred and maybe some examples of what they look like to you. I also recognize this thread has become very long and maybe you don't want to reply anymore, and that's OK with me, too. I'm grateful you came this long with me and helped me explore this more. [0]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-criticism https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-critici... [1]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/self-hatred https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/self-hatred [2]: https://www.lifehack.org/863533/self-critical https://www.lifehack.org/863533/self-critical
  - recursivedoubts 5y ago
    traditionally (which is where Chesterton would be coming from) self-criticism is a rational assessment ones own failings (typically due to ones passions, which are by this definition irrational) self-hatred would be a potential emotional response to that assessment and may or may not be reasonable. a self-hating murderer may be on the right track, or at least on a better track than a self-justifying or indifferent murderer, although Chesterton would almost certainly make the obvious Christian point here i am not particularly versed in modern psychology, beyond what a reasonably educated layman would pick up in passing. i think the old timey folks like GKC had a better handle on what makes people happy, in the greek sense of that term, and I view self-criticism as an important aspect of that happiness in order to rationally assess ones situation and make improvements to it