4 ms·

> Mexico is almost a failed state due to cartel Can you provide a justification/explanation/citation for this claim? I have been to Mexico many times as a fasc

> Mexico is almost a failed state due to cartel Can you provide a justification/explanation/citation for this claim? I have been to Mexico many times as a fascinated tourist and layperson. As yet I have not gotten an "almost failed state" vibe. While there seem to be clear challenges facing the populace, things seem to proceed fine at a day to day level.

nomel 5y ago
> as a fascinated tourist Does this mean you stayed on cartel protected tourist routes, or did you have a chance to go "off the tracks" a bit?
- blamazon 5y ago
  I like 4x4 style offroading/overlanding/camping and staying with local folks to practice Spanish far from resort land. So I'm gonna land on the latter in my opinion.
  - nomel 5y ago
    To be fair, far from resort land isn't usually where the cartels are. And, my comment wasn't meant to be as negative as it sounded. I live at the border. It's well known that the cartel regulates/protects Tijuana. A well visited Tijuana is a profitable Tijuana. They're not idiots.
- rurp 5y ago
  I've traveled hundreds of kilometers around central Mexico in areas where I almost never saw another gringo. I've also seen zero cartel activity and had excellent experiences with local police. The extent of violence and dangerous areas in Mexico is way, way overblown by certain news stations in America.
  - twofornone 5y ago
    >I've also seen zero cartel activity and had excellent experiences with local police. What exactly do you think "cartel activity" looks like? The fact that some random international tourist didn't witness any overt "cartel activity" does not remotely imply that it is not a problem in Mexico. These cartels have been in open war with the government for decades, police and military forces are regularly compromised, and frequently the cartels form defacto local governments when they take over towns. Pablo Escobar was one of the wealthiest people in the world when he went to war with the colombian government, mexico has similar issues.
    - aylmao 5y ago
      I'm Mexican, still spend plenty of time in Mexico, and have also never seen any "cartel activity" except in the news. I know it's a problem, but I also think english media depicts Mexico in a much more bleak light than it warrants.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    Your individual experience may be enlightening on some level, but it's not hugely relevatn with respect to understanding the overall level of violence and systematic degredation in Mexico. I lived in the USA for many years - and not once, ever, did I see someone do anything racist. I also never witnessed, or even heard of through colleagues, of the police doing something wrong. But clearly, systematic racism does exist, and, there are problems with the justice system. And, it's a bit glib to suggest you'd directly see some kind of 'cartel activity' as a wayward tourist. Most violent activity is focused 'among players'. Your point on 'way overblown in the American press' is definitely reasonable, in the sense that, the news will make people think that 'walking down the street in Mexico is on the whole dangerous' - when obviously it's not. In fact, it's generally safe. That's not the issue though. The relative level of violence, systematic corruption, lawlessness is very real and it affects many people in indirect ways. Living in Russia is not dangerous. Especially if you don't say anything about the the government, there's almost 0% chance you're going to have a problem. But watch videos of Russians being interviewed about the war in Ukraine - they are hesitant to the point of fearful in 'having an opinion'. There are certain thoughts, they are not allowed to have. If you can't read, write or talk about a thing, that thing dissapears. That's what oppression is: large swaths of people actually disagreeing with the government, but otherwise going about their business as normal. In a 'safe country' you'll have no problem saying anything about anyone. The government, or criminals. The next time you're in a Mexican city known to be controlled by cartel members, simply ask the question: "What do you think of so and so" cartel boss? You'll find out very quickly how pervasive influence is, and if you dig a little deeper, you might find out how systematically that corruption extends into quite a lot of small things - all the nooks and crannies. Saying 'Mexico is no bad' is like saying Putin isn't a problem, because 99% of Russians don't directly suffer consequences. It's the 1% we are concerned about, and more broadly, the systematic issues that affect us all. Mexico should be much richer and more prosperous than it is, and it will not evolve in a positive direction while it's partially a narco state. That affects everyone.
rhexs 5y ago
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/mexico-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/... Of course the tourist locations are nice and don't give off an "almost failed state" vibe. "Country Summary: Violent crime – such as homicide, kidnapping, carjacking, and robbery – is widespread and common in Mexico." Heck, even Wikipedia does a good job covering it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- aylmao 5y ago
  I'm from Mexico. I still spend plenty of time every year and/or have family in states under the "Do Not Travel To" or "Reconsider Travel To" lists. In my experience rather than having "nice tourist locations", it has the opposite: "dangerous crime locations". These are usually along the fault lines of cartel territories or in specific "sketchy areas". Mexico is nice for us non-tourists living in non-tourist places too IMO.
jollybean 5y ago
? Cartels have effective control over certain areas of Mexico and corrupted all layers of governance. > 40 000 dead from direct conflict between cartels and government forces since 2006. Just because it's technically unlikely that you're going to encounter the violence yourself, and therefore not give you a 'violence vibe' doesn't really have anything to do with how much violence there is. 40K is a gigantic number and will possibly be bigger than the Russian-Ukranian war when it's over. If power of some armed groups rivals that of government, then it's a 'near failed state'. We have the technology and wherewithal and hopefully 'learned lessons' to make progress on this. The fact that this massive, organized violence exists, is to a great extent our responsibility for letting it metastasize.

nomel 5y ago

> as a fascinated tourist Does this mean you stayed on cartel protected tourist routes, or did you have a chance to go "off the tracks" a bit?

blamazon 5y ago
I like 4x4 style offroading/overlanding/camping and staying with local folks to practice Spanish far from resort land. So I'm gonna land on the latter in my opinion.
- nomel 5y ago
  To be fair, far from resort land isn't usually where the cartels are. And, my comment wasn't meant to be as negative as it sounded. I live at the border. It's well known that the cartel regulates/protects Tijuana. A well visited Tijuana is a profitable Tijuana. They're not idiots.
rurp 5y ago
I've traveled hundreds of kilometers around central Mexico in areas where I almost never saw another gringo. I've also seen zero cartel activity and had excellent experiences with local police. The extent of violence and dangerous areas in Mexico is way, way overblown by certain news stations in America.
- twofornone 5y ago
  >I've also seen zero cartel activity and had excellent experiences with local police. What exactly do you think "cartel activity" looks like? The fact that some random international tourist didn't witness any overt "cartel activity" does not remotely imply that it is not a problem in Mexico. These cartels have been in open war with the government for decades, police and military forces are regularly compromised, and frequently the cartels form defacto local governments when they take over towns. Pablo Escobar was one of the wealthiest people in the world when he went to war with the colombian government, mexico has similar issues.
  - aylmao 5y ago
    I'm Mexican, still spend plenty of time in Mexico, and have also never seen any "cartel activity" except in the news. I know it's a problem, but I also think english media depicts Mexico in a much more bleak light than it warrants.
- jollybean 5y ago
  Your individual experience may be enlightening on some level, but it's not hugely relevatn with respect to understanding the overall level of violence and systematic degredation in Mexico. I lived in the USA for many years - and not once, ever, did I see someone do anything racist. I also never witnessed, or even heard of through colleagues, of the police doing something wrong. But clearly, systematic racism does exist, and, there are problems with the justice system. And, it's a bit glib to suggest you'd directly see some kind of 'cartel activity' as a wayward tourist. Most violent activity is focused 'among players'. Your point on 'way overblown in the American press' is definitely reasonable, in the sense that, the news will make people think that 'walking down the street in Mexico is on the whole dangerous' - when obviously it's not. In fact, it's generally safe. That's not the issue though. The relative level of violence, systematic corruption, lawlessness is very real and it affects many people in indirect ways. Living in Russia is not dangerous. Especially if you don't say anything about the the government, there's almost 0% chance you're going to have a problem. But watch videos of Russians being interviewed about the war in Ukraine - they are hesitant to the point of fearful in 'having an opinion'. There are certain thoughts, they are not allowed to have. If you can't read, write or talk about a thing, that thing dissapears. That's what oppression is: large swaths of people actually disagreeing with the government, but otherwise going about their business as normal. In a 'safe country' you'll have no problem saying anything about anyone. The government, or criminals. The next time you're in a Mexican city known to be controlled by cartel members, simply ask the question: "What do you think of so and so" cartel boss? You'll find out very quickly how pervasive influence is, and if you dig a little deeper, you might find out how systematically that corruption extends into quite a lot of small things - all the nooks and crannies. Saying 'Mexico is no bad' is like saying Putin isn't a problem, because 99% of Russians don't directly suffer consequences. It's the 1% we are concerned about, and more broadly, the systematic issues that affect us all. Mexico should be much richer and more prosperous than it is, and it will not evolve in a positive direction while it's partially a narco state. That affects everyone.

rhexs 5y ago

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/traveladvisories/mexico-travel-advisory.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/traveladvisories/... Of course the tourist locations are nice and don't give off an "almost failed state" vibe. "Country Summary: Violent crime – such as homicide, kidnapping, carjacking, and robbery – is widespread and common in Mexico." Heck, even Wikipedia does a good job covering it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Mexico

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aylmao 5y ago
I'm from Mexico. I still spend plenty of time every year and/or have family in states under the "Do Not Travel To" or "Reconsider Travel To" lists. In my experience rather than having "nice tourist locations", it has the opposite: "dangerous crime locations". These are usually along the fault lines of cartel territories or in specific "sketchy areas". Mexico is nice for us non-tourists living in non-tourist places too IMO.

jollybean 5y ago

? Cartels have effective control over certain areas of Mexico and corrupted all layers of governance. > 40 000 dead from direct conflict between cartels and government forces since 2006. Just because it's technically unlikely that you're going to encounter the violence yourself, and therefore not give you a 'violence vibe' doesn't really have anything to do with how much violence there is. 40K is a gigantic number and will possibly be bigger than the Russian-Ukranian war when it's over. If power of some armed groups rivals that of government, then it's a 'near failed state'. We have the technology and wherewithal and hopefully 'learned lessons' to make progress on this. The fact that this massive, organized violence exists, is to a great extent our responsibility for letting it metastasize.