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Extremely self critical people can be extremely hateful. Its hard to keep self criticism contained to the self. And if you're already self critical, its hard to

Extremely self critical people can be extremely hateful. Its hard to keep self criticism contained to the self. And if you're already self critical, its hard to handle others criticism of you.

_moof 5y ago
There are two kinds of criticism: the kind that seeks to tear down, and the kind that seeks to build up. When people talk about being "self-critical" it's usually the tear-down kind, or what therapists call negative self-talk. I think in this case though it's being used as an antonym for arrogance.
jimkleiber 5y ago
+5. I wanted to +1 but I really liked what you said. Someone said to me the other day they were afraid to tell me how they speak to themself and much they hate themself. I'm getting much better at recognizing when someone says something to me about my life and it pisses me off, it's often because I've been saying that same thing to myself 10x. "You should just get a stable job" when someone else says that, I get angry at them saying it, only to (hopefully sooner rather than later) realize "ah it's because I've already heard that message 10 times today in my own head."
- recursivedoubts 5y ago
  Self-hatred and self-criticism are separate things: the former an emotion the latter a rational process. We live in an emotional age and thus it is easy to conflate the two. But they are different.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    Personally I don't believe "self-criticism" and "self-hatred" are mutually exclusive, just as I don't believe emotion and rationality are mutually exclusive...but perhaps you do, and that's OK.
    - ScoobleDoodle 5y ago
      I think they meant they are distinct. Not that they are mutually exclusive. Not necessarily orthogonal, but the idea is along the similar lines.
      - jimkleiber 5y ago
        Haha I mean, yeah, at some point language abstracts and becomes more and more imprecise. Do I believe they're distinct? Sure. I think they can also blend together in one person and also that one person's self-hatred could be another's self-criticism. I could see it as a mutually agreed upon spectrum from self-hatred to self-love with different steps between, I could see self-criticism and self-hatred as separate, where criticism focuses on the actions and hatred on the person, I could see self-criticism as compared to self-curiosity, which may have an axis of certainty, from certain to uncertain and wanting to know. I often talk of critical vs curious vs connected, where curious is I don't know but I want to know, critical is I don't know and I need to know, and connected is I don't know and I don't need to know. But critical could also be I know vis-a-vis the others. But I don't know if these are necessarily true and universal and objective, but rather linguistic tools I've found to help me. I think there's a certain subjectivity to many of these things and I notice I have somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction when I hear someone ascribe an objectivity to something I believe has much more subjectivity.
        recursivedoubts 5y ago
        self-criticism can cause self-hatred (appropriate or not) milk can cause a sour stomach milk is not a sour stomach
        jimkleiber 5y ago
        I think maybe we're defining self-criticism differently. From a paper from Clinical Psychology Review in 2020[0]: > Self-criticism is defined as the tendency to engage in negative self-evaluation that results in feelings of worthlessness, failure, and guilt when expectations are not met I see that quite a few other results in the DuckDuckGo search define self-criticism similarly, which doesn't sound so different from self-hatred. Psychology Today defines it as[1]: > Self-hatred encompasses continual feelings of inadequacy, guilt, and low self-esteem. People may constantly compare themselves to others, perceive only the negative and ignore the positive, and believe that they will never be "good enough." But every single person has worth and value—and the ability to cultivate self-love. So maybe I can see a difference in these definitions as self-criticism being the act of attacking oneself whereas self-hatred is thinking the one is worthy of attack? I don't know. However, I think you may be defining it more along the lines of looking at one's behaviors and trying to be very honest about the impacts of those behaviors, almost a systems thinking approach. "I do X, and Y seems to happen every time I do X, and I don't want Y to happen, so maybe I should do Z instead and see what happens" or something along those lines. This seems more in line with how this LifeHack article defines it[2]: > It is easy to hear the term “self-critical” and be immediately put off. After all, it’s difficult to be our own critics. However, utilizing self-criticism means taking a more self-aware path to ensure that you aren’t overlooking any possible areas of self-improvement. > Self-criticism affects your self-esteem and can be a useful tool to identify patterns of weakness that you can look to eradicate by adapting your behavior. I don't define self-criticism as such, I think it often involves labeling a behavior or more likely, myself, as good or bad, with a tendency towards bad. I struggle to think of "positive self-criticism," and so think that most self-criticism seems to be "You're stupid. What you did was idiotic. You're such a bad person," etc. If I were to define self-criticism similar to how I think you may be defining it, in terms of taking a more detached approach to honestly reflect on one's behavior and how it may cause harm to oneself or others, then I agree with what you said. I'm just guessing many people don't define it that way. I'm curious to hear how you define self-criticism and self-hatred and maybe some examples of what they look like to you. I also recognize this thread has become very long and maybe you don't want to reply anymore, and that's OK with me, too. I'm grateful you came this long with me and helped me explore this more. [0]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-criticism https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-critici... [1]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/self-hatred https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/self-hatred [2]: https://www.lifehack.org/863533/self-critical https://www.lifehack.org/863533/self-critical
recursivedoubts 5y ago
Broadly, I don't notice a surfeit of self-criticism in today's world.

Extremely self critical people can be extremely hateful. Its hard to keep self criticism contained to the self. And if you're already self critical, its hard to handle others criticism of you.

_moof 5y ago

There are two kinds of criticism: the kind that seeks to tear down, and the kind that seeks to build up. When people talk about being "self-critical" it's usually the tear-down kind, or what therapists call negative self-talk. I think in this case though it's being used as an antonym for arrogance.

jimkleiber 5y ago

+5. I wanted to +1 but I really liked what you said. Someone said to me the other day they were afraid to tell me how they speak to themself and much they hate themself. I'm getting much better at recognizing when someone says something to me about my life and it pisses me off, it's often because I've been saying that same thing to myself 10x. "You should just get a stable job" when someone else says that, I get angry at them saying it, only to (hopefully sooner rather than later) realize "ah it's because I've already heard that message 10 times today in my own head."

recursivedoubts 5y ago
Self-hatred and self-criticism are separate things: the former an emotion the latter a rational process. We live in an emotional age and thus it is easy to conflate the two. But they are different.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  Personally I don't believe "self-criticism" and "self-hatred" are mutually exclusive, just as I don't believe emotion and rationality are mutually exclusive...but perhaps you do, and that's OK.
  - ScoobleDoodle 5y ago
    I think they meant they are distinct. Not that they are mutually exclusive. Not necessarily orthogonal, but the idea is along the similar lines.
    - jimkleiber 5y ago
      Haha I mean, yeah, at some point language abstracts and becomes more and more imprecise. Do I believe they're distinct? Sure. I think they can also blend together in one person and also that one person's self-hatred could be another's self-criticism. I could see it as a mutually agreed upon spectrum from self-hatred to self-love with different steps between, I could see self-criticism and self-hatred as separate, where criticism focuses on the actions and hatred on the person, I could see self-criticism as compared to self-curiosity, which may have an axis of certainty, from certain to uncertain and wanting to know. I often talk of critical vs curious vs connected, where curious is I don't know but I want to know, critical is I don't know and I need to know, and connected is I don't know and I don't need to know. But critical could also be I know vis-a-vis the others. But I don't know if these are necessarily true and universal and objective, but rather linguistic tools I've found to help me. I think there's a certain subjectivity to many of these things and I notice I have somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction when I hear someone ascribe an objectivity to something I believe has much more subjectivity.
      - recursivedoubts 5y ago
        self-criticism can cause self-hatred (appropriate or not) milk can cause a sour stomach milk is not a sour stomach
        jimkleiber 5y ago
        I think maybe we're defining self-criticism differently. From a paper from Clinical Psychology Review in 2020[0]: > Self-criticism is defined as the tendency to engage in negative self-evaluation that results in feelings of worthlessness, failure, and guilt when expectations are not met I see that quite a few other results in the DuckDuckGo search define self-criticism similarly, which doesn't sound so different from self-hatred. Psychology Today defines it as[1]: > Self-hatred encompasses continual feelings of inadequacy, guilt, and low self-esteem. People may constantly compare themselves to others, perceive only the negative and ignore the positive, and believe that they will never be "good enough." But every single person has worth and value—and the ability to cultivate self-love. So maybe I can see a difference in these definitions as self-criticism being the act of attacking oneself whereas self-hatred is thinking the one is worthy of attack? I don't know. However, I think you may be defining it more along the lines of looking at one's behaviors and trying to be very honest about the impacts of those behaviors, almost a systems thinking approach. "I do X, and Y seems to happen every time I do X, and I don't want Y to happen, so maybe I should do Z instead and see what happens" or something along those lines. This seems more in line with how this LifeHack article defines it[2]: > It is easy to hear the term “self-critical” and be immediately put off. After all, it’s difficult to be our own critics. However, utilizing self-criticism means taking a more self-aware path to ensure that you aren’t overlooking any possible areas of self-improvement. > Self-criticism affects your self-esteem and can be a useful tool to identify patterns of weakness that you can look to eradicate by adapting your behavior. I don't define self-criticism as such, I think it often involves labeling a behavior or more likely, myself, as good or bad, with a tendency towards bad. I struggle to think of "positive self-criticism," and so think that most self-criticism seems to be "You're stupid. What you did was idiotic. You're such a bad person," etc. If I were to define self-criticism similar to how I think you may be defining it, in terms of taking a more detached approach to honestly reflect on one's behavior and how it may cause harm to oneself or others, then I agree with what you said. I'm just guessing many people don't define it that way. I'm curious to hear how you define self-criticism and self-hatred and maybe some examples of what they look like to you. I also recognize this thread has become very long and maybe you don't want to reply anymore, and that's OK with me, too. I'm grateful you came this long with me and helped me explore this more. [0]: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-criticism https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/self-critici... [1]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/self-hatred https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/self-hatred [2]: https://www.lifehack.org/863533/self-critical https://www.lifehack.org/863533/self-critical

recursivedoubts 5y ago

Broadly, I don't notice a surfeit of self-criticism in today's world.