5 ms·

This guy was under the impression that what he was doing wasn’t illegal. IANAL but the fact that he is being charged with access device fraud might suggest tha

by rosndo 5y ago

This guy was under the impression that what he was doing wasn’t illegal. IANAL but the fact that he is being charged with access device fraud might suggest that DOJ had to engage in some mental gymnastics in order to charge this. E: I’ll take that back since I actually read the indictment now, besides the usual raidforums fare he was also selling credit card data which would very much tend to attract access device fraud charges.

jacquesm 5y ago
I already said he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.
- rosndo 5y ago
  What he was doing might very well have been legal had he just avoided payment information and stuck to stolen databases containing emails, phone numbers, passwords. That was the bulk of the trade on raidforums anyway. But yeah, definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > might very well have been legal had he just avoided payment information and stuck to stolen databases containing emails, phone numbers, passwords I suspect that you are wrong about this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term) "Count 1: Conspiracy to Commit Access Device Fraud (18 U.S.C. §§ 1029(b)(2)and 3559(g)(1)) Count 2: Access Device Fraud — Using or Trafficking in an Unauthorized Access Device (18 U.S.C. §§ 1029(a)(2)and 2) Count 3: Access Device Fraud — Possession of Fifteen or More Unauthorized Access Devices (18 U.S.C. §§ 1029(a)(3)and 2) Counts 4-5: Access Device Fraud — Unauthorized Solicitation (18 U.S.C. §§ 1029(a)(6)and 2) Count 6: Aggravated Identity Theft (18 U.S.C. §§ 1028A(a)(l)and 2)" If this sticks he will be gone for a long, long time, and, crucially, he handed over the the evidence himself so no amount of 'it wasn't me' is going to help here.
    - rosndo 5y ago
      Accessory after the fact: > Whoever, knowing that an offense against the United States has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact. It’s not obvious at all that selling e.g. the leaked Linkedin database would be illegal in any way. You wouldn’t retroactively become an accessory to the original crime. Of course, that stopped mattering the moment he started trafficking in stolen payment card information…
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        A reminder not to take legal advice from HN.
    - cellis 5y ago
      Also important to keep in mind he ( most likely ) wasn’t aware of US law. Not sure how Portugal classifies businesses such as these, but we know how e.g. Russia differs in this regard.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, true, but that's exactly why if you aren't aware of something or unsure of something you play it safe. The number of people that got busted like this is large enough that I'm 100% sure that he was aware that this wasn't a legal operation, in fact he went to some length to hide his identity, which shows at least minimal awareness of this.
- frontman1988 5y ago
  Cut him some slack he was literally a teen when he got arrested.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    When I was a teen I did lots of stupid stuff but generally I was aware of where the line was and if and when it was crossed I was pretty careful about it (mostly: experimenting with 'modulated high frequency sine wave generation').
Teandw 5y ago
He knew what he was doing was illegal. You don't go through all the steps he did to stop authorities taking down the website without knowing what you're doing is illegal.
- doldols 5y ago
  What steps were those? How are they distinguishable from the steps you would take to protect your website from being taken down because of abuse reports from upset people? Trading in hacked data might not be illegal unless it’s credit card information, but your average hosting provider probably isn’t going to care about such nuances.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > Trading in hacked data might not be illegal unless it’s credit card information Dangerous nonsense. Trafficking in stolen data is illegal, please read the full indictment.
    - doldols 5y ago
      But it really isn’t… The indictment mostly sticks to payment information for a reason. And besides, indictments are not law.
      - Teandw 5y ago
        They focus on payment information as those are the most serious crimes and would provide the harshest sentence. Trading hacked emails does not carry the same weight as trading hacked credit card details.
        doldols 5y ago
        What weight does trading hacked emails carry? As far as I can tell, lawmakers simply have not criminalized this. Many things that obviously should be illegal are not illegal.

by rosndo 5y ago

jacquesm 5y ago

I already said he wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

rosndo 5y ago
What he was doing might very well have been legal had he just avoided payment information and stuck to stolen databases containing emails, phone numbers, passwords. That was the bulk of the trade on raidforums anyway. But yeah, definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > might very well have been legal had he just avoided payment information and stuck to stolen databases containing emails, phone numbers, passwords I suspect that you are wrong about this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term) "Count 1: Conspiracy to Commit Access Device Fraud (18 U.S.C. §§ 1029(b)(2)and 3559(g)(1)) Count 2: Access Device Fraud — Using or Trafficking in an Unauthorized Access Device (18 U.S.C. §§ 1029(a)(2)and 2) Count 3: Access Device Fraud — Possession of Fifteen or More Unauthorized Access Devices (18 U.S.C. §§ 1029(a)(3)and 2) Counts 4-5: Access Device Fraud — Unauthorized Solicitation (18 U.S.C. §§ 1029(a)(6)and 2) Count 6: Aggravated Identity Theft (18 U.S.C. §§ 1028A(a)(l)and 2)" If this sticks he will be gone for a long, long time, and, crucially, he handed over the the evidence himself so no amount of 'it wasn't me' is going to help here.
  - rosndo 5y ago
    Accessory after the fact: > Whoever, knowing that an offense against the United States has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact. It’s not obvious at all that selling e.g. the leaked Linkedin database would be illegal in any way. You wouldn’t retroactively become an accessory to the original crime. Of course, that stopped mattering the moment he started trafficking in stolen payment card information…
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      A reminder not to take legal advice from HN.
  - cellis 5y ago
    Also important to keep in mind he ( most likely ) wasn’t aware of US law. Not sure how Portugal classifies businesses such as these, but we know how e.g. Russia differs in this regard.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Yes, true, but that's exactly why if you aren't aware of something or unsure of something you play it safe. The number of people that got busted like this is large enough that I'm 100% sure that he was aware that this wasn't a legal operation, in fact he went to some length to hide his identity, which shows at least minimal awareness of this.
frontman1988 5y ago
Cut him some slack he was literally a teen when he got arrested.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  When I was a teen I did lots of stupid stuff but generally I was aware of where the line was and if and when it was crossed I was pretty careful about it (mostly: experimenting with 'modulated high frequency sine wave generation').

Teandw 5y ago

He knew what he was doing was illegal. You don't go through all the steps he did to stop authorities taking down the website without knowing what you're doing is illegal.

doldols 5y ago
What steps were those? How are they distinguishable from the steps you would take to protect your website from being taken down because of abuse reports from upset people? Trading in hacked data might not be illegal unless it’s credit card information, but your average hosting provider probably isn’t going to care about such nuances.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > Trading in hacked data might not be illegal unless it’s credit card information Dangerous nonsense. Trafficking in stolen data is illegal, please read the full indictment.
  - doldols 5y ago
    But it really isn’t… The indictment mostly sticks to payment information for a reason. And besides, indictments are not law.
    - Teandw 5y ago
      They focus on payment information as those are the most serious crimes and would provide the harshest sentence. Trading hacked emails does not carry the same weight as trading hacked credit card details.
      - doldols 5y ago
        What weight does trading hacked emails carry? As far as I can tell, lawmakers simply have not criminalized this. Many things that obviously should be illegal are not illegal.