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Amazon warehouses are one of the few instances where unionization makes sense in the 21st century. The problem with this isn't unionization itself but the trend

• pmoriarty 5y ago
  "The common portrayal of unions as good and corporations as evil is over simplistic and often backwards." The common portrayal (at least in the US) is that unions are evil. That's why American unions and union activity have been almost completely squashed in the US for decades now. This sentiment is starting to change a bit as people are finally starting to wake up to the massive inequality in this country and the enormous wealth and power of corporations and the oligarchs who control them vs the barely subsistence existence of the ever growing lower classes.
  • robert_foss 5y ago
    American laws around unions are very weak compared to other countries. Sympathy / Support strikes by neighboring unions are not legal for example. This was what allowed unions to prevail at McDonalds in Denmark. Yes, flipping burgers at McD is a union job Denmark. The BigMac index of Denmark is 4.4, compared to 5.67 in America.
    • TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      Well phrased differently, laws around unions are strong but they are strong in how they limit the power of unions.
    • pmoriarty 5y ago
      > Sympathy / Support strikes by neighboring unions are not legal for example. I don't understand why union members just don't break the law and strike anyway. A lot of the protests during the Civil Rights struggle in America were illegal (and were met with lethal force, dogs, firehoses, etc..) yet the people still protested... and prevailed.
      • Cederfjard 5y ago
        This is not backed up by any data, so I welcome being rebuked, but my gut feeling is that those people were worse off than the ones who are unionized today, so the risks were worth it. Perhaps today the calculus yields a different outcome.
      • flurie 5y ago
        The monumental failure of the PATCO strike[1] has had lingering effects that continue through today. [1] https://libraries.uta.edu/news-events/blog/1981-patco-strike https://libraries.uta.edu/news-events/blog/1981-patco-strike
  • mc32 5y ago
    Wait, where and in what circumstance are they portrayed as evil? The main place I see them presented as backwards and unproductive is by common folk dealing with them and some business owners who also resent a lot of the inefficiency. But ‘portrayed as evil’ seems to try to say that in the media and cinema, etc., they are portrayed as evil … that’s not my experience. My experience is on the ground common folk talk smack about them. That said, if we get Unions to do the job of the Feds (FTC) and contribute to dragging them down via inefficiency a couple of notches allowing competition to viably compete, I'm all for it.
    • pmoriarty 5y ago
      They're portrayed as evil in conservative media and by conservative politicians... which, as we know from Trump's election, are a hugely powerful and effective influence on American politics.
      • mc32 5y ago
        So, not by the mainstream media, right? So in some circles they are portrayed in a bad light. I think it's an exaggeration to say they are (implied universally) portrayed as evil. My experience with regard to negative opinion against them is from people who have to interact with Union employees.
        • pmoriarty 5y ago
          "So, not by the mainstream media, right?" FOX News is the most successful news network in the US. It's very much in the mainstream.
          • mc32 5y ago
            Great. And what is the frequency and ratio of their mentioning unions and unions _EVIL_?
          • rayiner 5y ago
            Fox is the single largest one, but all the other ones put together are left leaning and bigger combined than Fox. You’re just making a point about consolidation in conservative media (okay?) not about the total impact of liberal versus conservative media.
  • tyingq 5y ago
    "almost completely squashed in the US for decades now" I'm confused by this. There are many notable large workgroups in the US with powerful unions. Police, for example. Pilots, Teachers, etc.
    • brimble 5y ago
      Teachers' union power varies a ton state-by-state. In mine, both our regional union and the NEA either can't, or choose not to, do anything, really, including in cases of blatant contract violations. I don't think they're allowed to negotiate those contracts in the first place, either.
  • rayiner 5y ago
    It doesn’t help that the unions have turned themselves into mere adjuncts of the Democratic Party, which now is run by the senior executive leadership of those corporations.
    • tptacek 5y ago
      The Republican party could do better with institutional labor if it removed the planks of its platform that are about gutting institutional labor.
  • passivate 5y ago
    >The common portrayal (at least in the US) is that unions are evil. >That's why American unions and union activity have been almost completely squashed in the US for decades now. But the public favourability hasn't declined (at-least as per this poll) https://news.gallup.com/poll/241679/labor-union-approval-steady-year-high.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/241679/labor-union-approval-ste...
  • willnonya 5y ago
    You consume too much propaganda. Unions themselves and the reality that so much work is no longer well suited to unionization are responsible for the decline. Unions served a purpose and in somce cases still should but their long history of corruption and their own oppressive tendencies are what drive people away from them. Nevermind that few people want to pay for the priviledge of having less say about, and in most cases less power over, their own futures and employment. The only place unions thrive are in the public sector whoch itself is an obscene abuse.
• TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  There’s was a lot of manipulation of unions in the 20th century that I imagine contributed to things like this. I’m no expert but I know a huge change was the Taft-Hartley Act. This made a lot of significant changes, but one that I can think of is that it outlawed wildcat strikes, which are union strikes without the authorization of union leadership. This change would have the effect of centralizing union power, increasing bureaucracy and weakening the very idea of a union. So yes historically unions have been a mixed bag, but it is worth considering how much of the negative aspects of unions were created through changes to laws that ultimately destroyed unions (in the USA). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft%E2%80%93Hartley_Act
• VictorPath 5y ago
  > damaging their employers How about corporations damaging unions? > The common portrayal of unions as good and corporations as evil is over simplistic and often backwards One has the workers who created the wealth keep the wealth they created, the other expropriates surplus labor time from workers, sending it off to the idle class heirs who inherited shares in the corporation.
• akira2501 5y ago
  > the trend in unions toward damaging their employers more than protecting the workers Is this an established trend? How might I go about observing this? > I've seen good unions and I've seen bad ones, I don't know which this is yet. I've seen good FUD and bad FUD. I don't know which one this is yet.
  • MisterSandman 5y ago
    FUD?
    • daverol 5y ago
      “fear, uncertainty, and doubt”
  • kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    The longshoremen forcing inefficient business practices for job protection is one good example. They have policies like requiring a three man crew in a crane that has enough automation to run on two and refusal to use electronic devices to manage containers.
• KingOfCoders 5y ago
  Concerning unions I'm with Churchill, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."
• brundolf 5y ago
  Unions are a mechanism for power, and anywhere there's power there will be those who would abuse it. But, without unions the employer has a near-monopoly on the power in the relationship. I think it's generally an improvement to have two sources of power competing with each other - even if both are imperfect - instead of one source of power that's unilateral and unchecked.
  • chernevik 5y ago
    Until the management co-opts the union leadership, and then it's just another layer of bureaucracy
    • freemint 5y ago
      A layer of democracy that can be voted. What if people could vote on all layers of bureaucracy?
• legulere 5y ago
  > but the trend in unions toward damaging their employers more than protecting the workers It's an American thing because of lax labour laws missing protections from being fired and missing social security. The company wants to close an unprofitable branch? The union prevents it, because the workers will fall into a hole when their job gets taken away. Currently in Germany Nordex is closing down a plant and the union is demanding that the plant is sold faster, so there will be new jobs for the workers.
  • taeric 5y ago
    This does feed in my odd weak union position. I feel that it is too close to folks not wanting to support local government. That is, I'd rather just have higher taxes and better social nets than some trades locking in dues to a national org. I don't know how to get that. So, I'm more likely to support unions. But I fear it moves further from the better answer.
• hardtke 5y ago
  I'm not an expert, but there are several types of unions. The biggest distinction is public sector vs. private sector. Public sector unions have their own issues, but this would be a private sector union. Within private sector unions there are "factory" type unions and skilled worker unions (electricians, plumbers, etc.). In the case where you have a single "factory" in a town, the workers need to bargain together in order for wages/working conditions to not have a race to the bottom. Workers can't take their specific skills learned at the factory across the street and get similar pay since there is only one place to work. For skilled worker unions, the unions allow workers to float through various companies that have work while maintaining their pensions and wages (determined across the entire union hall based on seniority). Companies of course hate being forced to hire more senior workers at higher pay level when their productivity is not that much higher (or even less). A lot of the "bad" reputation with private sector unions likely originated with the corruption associated with the pension funds investing in shady deals. And we all have horror stories about bad teachers protected by the union or "lazy" workers.
• sam0x17 5y ago
  I agree amazon warehouses are one of the best use cases for unionization, but I also believe there is almost nowhere unionization doesn't make sense. Collective bargaining makes sense wherever there is a collective that is being exploited AKA wherever employment is happening in which the means of production aren't entirely controlled by the workforce.
• jollybean 5y ago
  For the first little while, almost no matter what, this is a 'good union' because the mere existence of it is positive. But yes, they can go awry quickly enough. But even if they screw it up, and even if they are dissolved, they may very well have succeeded in moving the needle on a bunch of critical things. It'd be great to see them take on Walmart.
• bayareabadboy 5y ago
  Yeah I agree with this. And also the consumer will probably lose. And then a new competitor will eat amazon’s lunch, and the cycle continues.