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I think this is why it's hard sometimes to argue in support of something you believe, even if you're right. At one point, all of the relevant facts and figures

• qq66 5y ago
  One way to make this clear to yourself is to observe how much more difficult it is to "define bread" than it is to answer "is this bread?"
  • whatshisface 5y ago
    Bread is defined as anything I think bread is, and the same goes for any other word. To hold another position would be in some way dishonest.
    • alanh 5y ago
      That’s not a definition :) And, by the way, a definition is not defined as whatever one thinks a definition is.
      • zephyrthenoble 5y ago
        Maybe their definition of definition is your definition of bread?
        • pcthrowaway 5y ago
          Give us this day our daily definition
          • alanh 5y ago
            At risk of really devolving this thread, I’m pretty sure that bodybuilders generally agree that bread is counter-productive in the pursuit of definition :)
            • mkaic 5y ago
              "Bread makes you fat??" ~Scott Pilgrim
            • tetsusaiga 5y ago
              Great, now we gotta figure out what a "bodybuilder" is!
              • pc86 5y ago
                One whose body is sufficiently defined.
      • whatshisface 5y ago
        It offers a one-to-one correspondence between stimuli and classifications, what else could a definition be?
  • alanh 5y ago
    There can be surprising insights yielded from such an exercise. For example, if I think about what separates breads from cakes and muffins, I am forced to deal with the way that a typical "banana bread" (baked with lots of sugar and without yeast) is really a bread-shaped muffin more than a banana-flavored bread. This might seem overly semantic, but it does reflect differences in how it is baked and what it means nutritionally.
    • whatshisface 5y ago
      The examples that you're structuring your attempted definitions around (banana bread) come from your intuition. In the ultimate limit your definition would be a complete list of your intuitions.
  • shadowgovt 5y ago
    This thought experiment ends with Diogenes running into the Academy and tossing a Guinness in my face. ;)
    • IntrepidWorm 5y ago
      I have a hard time believing Diogenes would waste a good Guinness like that.
  • samatman 5y ago
    This is more about the fact that we recognize bread, and definition plays no role in the process of recognition. Even if we define what bread is, that won't play a role in our recognition of anything other than maybe-this-is-bread-plus-I'm-being-asked-to-judge-if-it-is-or-not.
• Pr0ject217 5y ago
  Insightful. Thanks.
• randomdata 5y ago
  > It also suggests a possible solution Is there a problem? The so-called global conversation concern seems to be simply that some people have differing feelings and their feelings push them to want others to share in the same feelings. To 'solve' for those feelings of some implies that their feelings are of greater importance than the feelings or others, but that seems pretty wishy-washy.
• hungryforcodes 5y ago
  This justifies all the hours I spend on HN. :)
• ryanong 5y ago
  This also make sense how one can hijack someones brain into believing something even if they don't understand why it makes sense
• ajuc 5y ago
  Here's article about this phenomenon: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/2MD3NMLBPCqPfnfre/cached-thoughts https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/2MD3NMLBPCqPfnfre/cached-tho...
• gregwebs 5y ago
  The solution I use is to take notes. I don't think the conversation on the social media is based around data. Most data points that people have are inaccurate (if not false), taken out of context, or used with an incorrect mental model. Once someone states something on social media, it has usually been taken on a viewpoint: at that point data is generally viewed with a confirmation bias type approach. I am wondering if there is a way to teach everyone to separate facts from values. The facts are the most important part that should be maintained separately (you can do this with notes). Then we need to recognize that different individuals will apply different values and focus on transmitting facts in discussions and let everyone apply their own value system.
  • bitcuration 5y ago
    What you described is called scientific method. It'd need good STEM education in young age, not shy on math, or at the very least doing computer programming professionally at some points of life. Good luck finding those in the last couple generations in the West.
• lekevicius 5y ago
  Favorited this comment for when my brain remembers "people argue online because of how our memory works", but not exactly how I arrived to that conclusion.
• throw0101a 5y ago
  > At one point, all of the relevant facts and figures were loaded into your working memory, and with that information you arrived at a conclusion. I often say "X was explained to me once and it sounded reasonable, but I don't remember the details anymore." Sometimes remembering the reasons themselves for X off the top of your head may not be important, but knowing that there are reasons (that you can look up) is. What the answer is for something may not be as remember as remembering that an answer exists.
• SinParadise 5y ago
  Which is also why I think using facts to convince others is a Sisyphean endeavor. It is far more rational to learn rhetoric when you have to argue. Learn to wield fallacies like a weapon. Of course, this relates back to good-faith, bad-faith engagement. Wielding rhetoric like this constantly deters people from engaging in good-faith, so you also have to develop a heuristic to determine whether or not the individual challenging your assertions is worth engaging in good-faith in the first place.
  • freedomben 5y ago
    I've found that 100/100 people just get offended and/or pissed and retreat to their amygdala if you point out a fallacy in their logic. It certainly doesn't help that many people pointing out logical fallacies are in fact wrong (and fallacious) themselves (the "you're using a slippery slope fallacy" for example is fallaciously used all over the place). I'm becoming increasingly convinced that good faith engagement is essentially impossible. The only reason I engage at all anymore is for the third party that might be an honest seeker who may stumble upon the thread at some point in the future.
    • SinParadise 5y ago
      >I've found that 100/100 people just get offended and/or pissed and retreat to their amygdala if you point out a fallacy in their logic. And I am sure I've been guilty of this before, many many times. Being challenged is not a comfortable position to be in. I have since learned to weaken my position to give myself and others some leeway when one of us is wrong. >I'm becoming increasingly convinced that good faith engagement is essentially impossible. It is certainly getting more difficult. I think it is still useful to engage with individuals in your chosen social circle honestly and in good-faith, otherwise why are they in your circle in the first place?
• leobg 5y ago
  "Would I not need to be a barrel of memory to also remember all my reasons? It is hard enough to remember just my opinions themselves!" -Nietzsche in Thus Spoke Zarathustra
• bick_nyers 5y ago
  Another potential upside of a brain to computer interface (Neuralink), the ability to store every memory you have ever had (while the device was installed) in full resolution. Assuming of course you maintain a server rack at home with copious amounts of hard drives.
  • freedomben 5y ago
    People will still argue that self-hosting is too hard so you might as well just accept that Evil Corp is gonna be the central store of all memories (with a great proprietary format!). Better not think of anything that violates the terms of service.
  • mattkrause 5y ago
    (...and we figure out how to that which is uhh...not close).
  • sethrin 5y ago
    > full resolution What, generally, do you think this might mean?
    • bick_nyers 5y ago
      The ability to experience a memory as precisely as you want, including the option of a full mental transplant, like loading a save file for a video game. See, hear, touch, smell, taste, and think the exact same thoughts as you did 15 years ago. The playback mechanisms will have some caveats, as it may not strictly be possible to playback perfectly, as you are a different person with a different brain and body than say 15 years ago. You could relive something in the first person perspective, or perhaps just observe yourself from a third person perspective. To a lesser degree, just being able to hear the dialogue in your brain at the time of a memory would be monumental. Then you can get into the business of using tools built around this, such as searching your memories, computing statistical analysis (maybe you can find out why you haven't been able to commit to an exercise habit for the past 5 years?), and so on.
      • 5y ago
• pontifier 5y ago
  Sometimes I find that the solution to some questions is so complete that I don't even remember what my issue was originally.
• dudeman13 5y ago
  >At one point, all of the relevant facts and figures were loaded into your working memory, and with that information you arrived at a conclusion You are awfully optimistic about the rationality of humans, aren't you? :)
  • pc86 5y ago
    I know this is a joke but it seems unnecessary. Most people actually do use evidence and logic to arrive at their opinions. The problem is some people are presented with incorrect or fabricated evidence. Some people draw incorrect conclusions, or maybe some of the evidence is above their head so they ignore that when it's vital to proper understanding. Some people aren't particularly good at logical thinking, or never progressed past introductory levels. This is all why you can show identical evidence to a group of people and get multiple, sometimes very different, opinions.
    • leaflets2 5y ago
      > Most people actually do use evidence and logic That's not how humans function. They are social animals and copy the opinions and beliefs of those they want to be (stay) friends with. Being part of the group is what matters, evolutionary, not logics and being right. And to influence others, step 1 is to make them look at you as a friend. There's a book about that :-)
      • addaon 5y ago
        “Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal.” -- Heinlein
    • fleddr 5y ago
      "Most people actually do use evidence and logic to arrive at their opinions." They do not. The brain is a machine of lies designed to keep you alive, rather than arrive at some pure truth. The vast majority of your brain power is subconscious. Your brain is extremely good at arriving what it needs to know, not at knowing or truthfulness in general. It takes an incredible effort in critical thinking (which does not come natural) to unravel the layers of misdirection and crap your brain has produced in order to come to a kind of objective truth. It's such a headache inducing process that few will undertake it. Even more so when the outcome of critical thinking is typically uncomfortable. Perhaps more unsettling is that even the very concept of you is a lie. Not your body, obviously. Your inner self, your identity if you will. You think you're some kind of well defined, consistent character. Carved in stone. One could perhaps summarize you in 10 bullet points and this idea of you is pretty stable over time. That's how you know it's you. In reality, the brain has established this concept of you because it's in your best interest. Every little piece of input, thought or memory that directly contradicts it (which is constantly) is carefully dismissed whilst the confirmation of the false belief is amplified. Not because it is correct, because it is preferential. I'm happy to leave you in this confused state on a random Tuesday. You can now think that this guy is full of shit, which proves my point of your brain filtering information that is not in your best interest. Or, you can agree. The outcome is the same. I'm right. Or, rather, my brain thinks it is. Which is what brains do. It's a defensive organ.
• systemvoltage 5y ago
  This is why verbal debates are bad.
• sgtnoodle 5y ago
  I had that thought this morning, knowing I have to present at a design review today! I think the boring solution is to take written notes when making decisions. As an engineer, I find that architecture documents are very powerful and always worth while.
• Enginerrrd 5y ago
  This is a very astute point. But I would also add that, IMO, you only ever even perceived reality as a compressed summary.
• sva_ 5y ago
  Interesting thought. Perhaps that is also why people sometimes have a hard time changing their mind when confronted with new information: a certain number of bits of information have led you to your belief, and even if some of those change or turn out to be false, you can't access those bits anymore individually, but only the resulting belief. Perhaps, the more those beliefs are reinforced, the less likely you are to access it's constituents. Sounds a lot like inductive bias, but somehow different from ML.
  • zasdffaa 5y ago
    > why people sometimes have a hard time changing their mind when confronted with new information Something else happens with me, it's like my brain says "this does not fit in with what I understand, discard it". At a conscious level I don't hear what I've just been told. I have to be told it again, and sometimes more than twice before it finally works its way in. It's a liability for me and a frustration for others and it's just plain peculiar.
    • sva_ 5y ago
      I don't think this is too uncommon. I sometimes go through such a phase, also in reading, and what helps me get back on track is to do things really intently for a while. And I mean even basic things, being really aware of what I'm doing and thinking in that moment. When you dont pay attention to what is currently happening, it's usually that your mind goes on tangents. I'd recommend becoming aware of those tangential thought processes. Mindful meditation may help a bit.
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• mjevans 5y ago
  It's extremely difficult to maintain a database of __all__ the citations for __anything__ you ever adjudicated (reached a decision). Making things more easily findable and a database of debunked lies might be better. Also great would be training (for anyone) on how to spot 'magic tricks' in debates / information presentation. E.G. how things might be cut down, remixed, or staged to create something that at a glance is convincing, but with closer examination could just be gaslighting.
• ttty 5y ago
  But I rather have event sourcing and save every single event in my brainy and rebuild the current state of my memory weekly or monthly. All those inaccurate facts you learn would be gone and would not pollute your brain