2 ms·

I'm on board for arguing that racism is bad because it's collective guilt (and, by extension, collective punishment). What you find though is that most people

by jmyeet 5y ago

I'm on board for arguing that racism is bad because it's collective guilt (and, by extension, collective punishment). What you find though is that most people aren't interested in ethical arguments. They're interested in preserving the power structures they have benefited and continue to benefit from. They see empowering another group as taking something away from their group. In the US in particular, fear is a huge motivator here. There's also a touch of projection: many fear some form of retribution from the newly-empowered group because, well, that's probably what they would do. It's kind of a self-report. But let's say you manage to convince people of the evils of collective guilt and punishment. Let's see if that extends to the treatment of Palestinians. Gaza is the world's largest open-air prison [1]. As an aside, this is really the point of the Republican censorship crusade against what it calls "critical race theory" because Republicans don't want people to be educated in system racism and collective punishment. That's no way to preserve a power structure. It's also worth pointing out that a bunch of states have laws on the books that teachers cannot disparage Israel (eg [2]). [1]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apart... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws

dolni 5y ago
> They see empowering another group as taking something away from their group. In some cases, it actually is. For example, NYC decided to phase out its gifted and talented program because it "segregated students". [1] So now, because some students aren't equitably represented in the gifted and talented programs, we take away from the (probably) white and Asian students who would benefit. [1]: https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/08/us/new-york-gifted-and-talented-education-program/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/08/us/new-york-gifted-and-talent...
- jmyeet 5y ago
  The centerpiece for W's first term was the No Child Left Behind Act. Many described it as the No Child Gets Ahead Act.. I've heard of that partcular move by NYC and I'm not a fan. I imagine the net effect is that it will drive those with the means to put such children into private schools instead. If you're low-income you don't have this option. How does this benefit anyone? The whole policy screams of a theoretical idea of not making kids feel bad.
  - dolni 5y ago
    > The centerpiece for W's first term was the No Child Left Behind Act. Many described it as the No Child Gets Ahead Act.. I think most people who look rationally at the NCLB Act can see it was an awful idea. If you have schools that are already struggling, the answer is not to take money away and make it _even more difficult_ to get their kids educated. > I've heard of that partcular move by NYC and I'm not a fan. I imagine the net effect is that it will drive those with the means to put such children into private schools instead. If you're low-income you don't have this option. How does this benefit anyone? You hit the nail on the head here, and what you've identified is that class is the much more pertinent issue. Folks need to be vigilant with social justice initiatives right now. Some people care about making legitimate, meaningful change. Other people use racial justice as a cover to do stupid crap like they're doing in NYC.
raxxorraxor 5y ago
I disagree on pretty much all these points. If you say a group needs to be advantaged compared to another, you are practicing collective guilt and don't build an argument against it. On the contrary. Palestine has some problems that need to be addressed. They still teach their children to hate Jews. So keeping them segregated isn't really a choice someone made and your mentioning the middle eastern conflict is a bit suspect.

by jmyeet 5y ago

dolni 5y ago

> They see empowering another group as taking something away from their group. In some cases, it actually is. For example, NYC decided to phase out its gifted and talented program because it "segregated students". [1] So now, because some students aren't equitably represented in the gifted and talented programs, we take away from the (probably) white and Asian students who would benefit. [1]: https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/08/us/new-york-gifted-and-talented-education-program/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/08/us/new-york-gifted-and-talent...

jmyeet 5y ago
The centerpiece for W's first term was the No Child Left Behind Act. Many described it as the No Child Gets Ahead Act.. I've heard of that partcular move by NYC and I'm not a fan. I imagine the net effect is that it will drive those with the means to put such children into private schools instead. If you're low-income you don't have this option. How does this benefit anyone? The whole policy screams of a theoretical idea of not making kids feel bad.
- dolni 5y ago
  > The centerpiece for W's first term was the No Child Left Behind Act. Many described it as the No Child Gets Ahead Act.. I think most people who look rationally at the NCLB Act can see it was an awful idea. If you have schools that are already struggling, the answer is not to take money away and make it _even more difficult_ to get their kids educated. > I've heard of that partcular move by NYC and I'm not a fan. I imagine the net effect is that it will drive those with the means to put such children into private schools instead. If you're low-income you don't have this option. How does this benefit anyone? You hit the nail on the head here, and what you've identified is that class is the much more pertinent issue. Folks need to be vigilant with social justice initiatives right now. Some people care about making legitimate, meaningful change. Other people use racial justice as a cover to do stupid crap like they're doing in NYC.

raxxorraxor 5y ago

I disagree on pretty much all these points. If you say a group needs to be advantaged compared to another, you are practicing collective guilt and don't build an argument against it. On the contrary. Palestine has some problems that need to be addressed. They still teach their children to hate Jews. So keeping them segregated isn't really a choice someone made and your mentioning the middle eastern conflict is a bit suspect.