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They're not saying "I don't think it makes sense," they are making the much stronger claim that there's "zero basis in scientific reality." Both claims were ma

They're not saying "I don't think it makes sense," they are making the much stronger claim that there's "zero basis in scientific reality." Both claims were made, without any evidence, by commenters on HN. I really wish people would be much more cautious in their pronouncements. Especially if they have zero expertise in the relevant fields.

colpabar 4y ago
Okay, I'll bite. Is there any basis in scientific reality? Where is the science that says the six foot rule is not necessary for humans eating and drinking in restaurants?
- VikingCoder 4y ago
  That's a great question. One that I bet very few people on HN are at all qualified to answer. I get similarly tired when I watch my non-technical friends on FB make pronouncements about technology. If someone says "I believe X" or "I don't believe Y," or "I saw an article about X which convinced me," that's great. But please, don't don the mantle of expertise and make pronouncements, especially in areas you have no understanding of. It's exhausting.
  - colpabar 4y ago
    I mean this is a forum on the internet, it's not a peer reviewed medical journal. People come here to talk about stuff. Sure, there are guidelines that encourage thoughtful, well written comments to foster an actual discussion, but there's no requirement of being an expert in anything. I don't think you should be "exhausted" by people making claims on the internet. Just insert the words "I think" in front of any comment that does not already include that, because that is what every comment already means.
    - VikingCoder 4y ago
      There's no accountability for spreading misinformation. Or for spreading opinions and casting them as facts. There are no retractions. There are no apologies. There's no value. Making claims without evidence, especially pretending you have expertise when you do so, decreases the signal to noise ratio on HN. And yes, it's exhausting to watch. I wish we would hold each other to a higher standard.
      - colpabar 4y ago
        >Making claims without evidence, especially pretending you have expertise when you do so, decreases the signal to noise ratio on HN. >And yes, it's exhausting to watch. I wish we would hold each other to a higher standard. Fair enough; I guess I'm just not as bothered by the misinformation (which seems to be synonymous with "information that's inconvenient to some authority") boogeyman as you are. When I see a claim online that I find interesting I will usually do a bit of research into the topic on my own. If I discover that the comment was incorrect, I may go back and downvote it, but I've still learned something, even though the original claim was wrong. If we had it your way, and no one without a PhD in a field was allowed to talk about things in that field, or every reply to every comment was "do you have a source for that?" with nothing else, this would be a pretty boring place! Don't you ever see a comment that you just know is wrong but wonder "how could anyone believe this?" I watched a couple flat earth videos once because I just didn't get it. Of course, it becomes pretty obvious it's complete nonsense after just a few minutes, but at least now I have the ability to say "you are wrong, and here's why" in my own words. I think a big issue with public discourse is that so many people never ever even try to imagine the reasoning behind a viewpoint with which they disagree. Without that understanding, I don't believe you can really convince anyone of anything, because all you can do is tell them they're wrong and point to some authority, which doesn't seem to work.
        VikingCoder 4y ago
        > If we had it your way, and no one without a PhD in a field was allowed to talk about things in that field Please try to understand me when I say, if someone says "I don't think X is true," that's very different to me than saying "There's no scientific basis for X to be true." I'm not saying people shouldn't talk about their beliefs. I'm sick of people pretending they know what they're talking about, donning the mantle of an expert, and making a proclamation about whether something is even possible. > people never ever even try to imagine I'm complaining about people who are trying to shut down all conversation. Not "I don't believe in X," but rather "there's no scientific basis for X." They're saying, "If you claim X, I know for certain you did not follow any scientific process to make that claim." They're saying, "Every reasonable person should reject any evidence of X, because it cannot be a scientific claim." They're doing what you accuse me of.
- lazide 4y ago
  Even better, the six foot rule itself was always a rough approximation of a best guess to reduce really dumb behavior (like getting within inches of each other at a bar and yelling all night type stuff, or huddling around each other), not based off any rigorous analysis of any kind I could find. Risk decreases significantly with distance, but I’ve found zero scientific evidence that 6 feet is somehow better or fits some set of trade offs better than other numbers (10? 4? 30?). There has been a lot of cargo cultish behavior, and just dumbness too - like how we got stuck on cloth masks when we could all just be sent properly rated respirators at this point for less (that would be more comfortable AND actually work!) is beyond my ability to comprehend.

colpabar 4y ago

Okay, I'll bite. Is there any basis in scientific reality? Where is the science that says the six foot rule is not necessary for humans eating and drinking in restaurants?

VikingCoder 4y ago
That's a great question. One that I bet very few people on HN are at all qualified to answer. I get similarly tired when I watch my non-technical friends on FB make pronouncements about technology. If someone says "I believe X" or "I don't believe Y," or "I saw an article about X which convinced me," that's great. But please, don't don the mantle of expertise and make pronouncements, especially in areas you have no understanding of. It's exhausting.
- colpabar 4y ago
  I mean this is a forum on the internet, it's not a peer reviewed medical journal. People come here to talk about stuff. Sure, there are guidelines that encourage thoughtful, well written comments to foster an actual discussion, but there's no requirement of being an expert in anything. I don't think you should be "exhausted" by people making claims on the internet. Just insert the words "I think" in front of any comment that does not already include that, because that is what every comment already means.
  - VikingCoder 4y ago
    There's no accountability for spreading misinformation. Or for spreading opinions and casting them as facts. There are no retractions. There are no apologies. There's no value. Making claims without evidence, especially pretending you have expertise when you do so, decreases the signal to noise ratio on HN. And yes, it's exhausting to watch. I wish we would hold each other to a higher standard.
    - colpabar 4y ago
      >Making claims without evidence, especially pretending you have expertise when you do so, decreases the signal to noise ratio on HN. >And yes, it's exhausting to watch. I wish we would hold each other to a higher standard. Fair enough; I guess I'm just not as bothered by the misinformation (which seems to be synonymous with "information that's inconvenient to some authority") boogeyman as you are. When I see a claim online that I find interesting I will usually do a bit of research into the topic on my own. If I discover that the comment was incorrect, I may go back and downvote it, but I've still learned something, even though the original claim was wrong. If we had it your way, and no one without a PhD in a field was allowed to talk about things in that field, or every reply to every comment was "do you have a source for that?" with nothing else, this would be a pretty boring place! Don't you ever see a comment that you just know is wrong but wonder "how could anyone believe this?" I watched a couple flat earth videos once because I just didn't get it. Of course, it becomes pretty obvious it's complete nonsense after just a few minutes, but at least now I have the ability to say "you are wrong, and here's why" in my own words. I think a big issue with public discourse is that so many people never ever even try to imagine the reasoning behind a viewpoint with which they disagree. Without that understanding, I don't believe you can really convince anyone of anything, because all you can do is tell them they're wrong and point to some authority, which doesn't seem to work.
      - VikingCoder 4y ago
        > If we had it your way, and no one without a PhD in a field was allowed to talk about things in that field Please try to understand me when I say, if someone says "I don't think X is true," that's very different to me than saying "There's no scientific basis for X to be true." I'm not saying people shouldn't talk about their beliefs. I'm sick of people pretending they know what they're talking about, donning the mantle of an expert, and making a proclamation about whether something is even possible. > people never ever even try to imagine I'm complaining about people who are trying to shut down all conversation. Not "I don't believe in X," but rather "there's no scientific basis for X." They're saying, "If you claim X, I know for certain you did not follow any scientific process to make that claim." They're saying, "Every reasonable person should reject any evidence of X, because it cannot be a scientific claim." They're doing what you accuse me of.
lazide 4y ago
Even better, the six foot rule itself was always a rough approximation of a best guess to reduce really dumb behavior (like getting within inches of each other at a bar and yelling all night type stuff, or huddling around each other), not based off any rigorous analysis of any kind I could find. Risk decreases significantly with distance, but I’ve found zero scientific evidence that 6 feet is somehow better or fits some set of trade offs better than other numbers (10? 4? 30?). There has been a lot of cargo cultish behavior, and just dumbness too - like how we got stuck on cloth masks when we could all just be sent properly rated respirators at this point for less (that would be more comfortable AND actually work!) is beyond my ability to comprehend.