4 ms·

But we do try to make things right for US citizens (and often foreigners) inside our own borders. What happens inside your borders is way more important than ou

But we do try to make things right for US citizens (and often foreigners) inside our own borders. What happens inside your borders is way more important than outside. I don't think what we've done in the middle east is remotely good but it's substantially different.

dundarious 4y ago
I don't think that matters really. First, I don't see the point in doing moral rankings. If I live in the US and the US does a bad thing, that's what I should care most about (up to a point). Even if I thought, "well, my morality points ranking shows China's worse", that shouldn't affect my political decisions in the US, where I can influence US decisions but not Chinese ones. But sure, if I have to pick which country to live in, on this metric I'd probably pick the US (we're smoothing over some extremely significant internal problems in the US here, but not directly comparable to Xinjiang, so OK, let's side-step them for the moment). But that's a pretty selfish view. Good conditions at home don't justify imposing awful conditions abroad. To think so is literally imperial logic. I realize using phrases like "imperial" induces eye-rolling in some, but it's appropriate for the concept we're discussing here. The US's cold calculating cruelty is perhaps less obvious, but it undoubtedly impacts far more lives and deaths. So while I won't weigh in on whether the US is an empire (don't care), if you buy into the logic that "we're only evil abroad, at home we try to be nice", then that is imperial logic.
monocasa 4y ago
ICE has been accused of performing large numbers of forced sterilizations within camps in US borders. https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-enforcement-medical-care-detainees/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-...
- nukemaster 4y ago
  Yes, that's not incompatible with what I said.
  - monocasa 4y ago
    What part of forcing sterilizations in camps in our borders is 'making things right for foreigners'?
    - nukemaster 4y ago
      Often != always.
      - monocasa 4y ago
        I'm sure that's what the CCP says about the Uighurs.
        nukemaster 4y ago
        I think you should try rereading my comment.
        monocasa 4y ago
        Perhaps instead you should restate your argument in different words if you think you're being misunderstood.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > ICE has been accused of performing large numbers of forced sterilizations within camps in US borders. > https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-enforcement-medical-care-detainees/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-... The hysterectomies weren't US or ICE policy, they were the result of poor oversight of one contract doctor who was committing malpractice. https://theintercept.com/2021/05/20/ice-irwin-hysterectomies-medical/ https://theintercept.com/2021/05/20/ice-irwin-hysterectomies... > ICE stopped sending immigrant women to Amin after the allegations of nonconsensual and unnecessary procedures came to light. The FBI is currently investigating Amin for a series of unnecessary, rough, or abusive procedures, according to a report in Prism by Tina Vásquez earlier this month. Amin is the doctor.
  - monocasa 4y ago
    The feds shut down the entire facility after the allegations came out. It wasn't a case of one doctor.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > The feds shut down the entire facility after the allegations came out. It wasn't a case of one doctor. Well the hysterectomy thing was the one doctor (and the facility failing at its duty to properly oversee him). However, it wouldn't surprise me if there were other issues there as well.
      - monocasa 4y ago
        Habitually performing major surgery without informed consent is a structural problem that can't be pinned on a single doctor. An incredible amount of checks have to break down to get to that point.
        tablespoon 4y ago
        > Habitually performing major surgery without informed consent is a structural problem that can't be pinned on a single doctor. An incredible amount of checks have to break down to get to that point. We agree.

dundarious 4y ago

I don't think that matters really. First, I don't see the point in doing moral rankings. If I live in the US and the US does a bad thing, that's what I should care most about (up to a point). Even if I thought, "well, my morality points ranking shows China's worse", that shouldn't affect my political decisions in the US, where I can influence US decisions but not Chinese ones. But sure, if I have to pick which country to live in, on this metric I'd probably pick the US (we're smoothing over some extremely significant internal problems in the US here, but not directly comparable to Xinjiang, so OK, let's side-step them for the moment). But that's a pretty selfish view. Good conditions at home don't justify imposing awful conditions abroad. To think so is literally imperial logic. I realize using phrases like "imperial" induces eye-rolling in some, but it's appropriate for the concept we're discussing here. The US's cold calculating cruelty is perhaps less obvious, but it undoubtedly impacts far more lives and deaths. So while I won't weigh in on whether the US is an empire (don't care), if you buy into the logic that "we're only evil abroad, at home we try to be nice", then that is imperial logic.

monocasa 4y ago

ICE has been accused of performing large numbers of forced sterilizations within camps in US borders. https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-enforcement-medical-care-detainees/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-...

nukemaster 4y ago
Yes, that's not incompatible with what I said.
- monocasa 4y ago
  What part of forcing sterilizations in camps in our borders is 'making things right for foreigners'?
  - nukemaster 4y ago
    Often != always.
    - monocasa 4y ago
      I'm sure that's what the CCP says about the Uighurs.
      - nukemaster 4y ago
        I think you should try rereading my comment.
        monocasa 4y ago
        Perhaps instead you should restate your argument in different words if you think you're being misunderstood.
tablespoon 4y ago
> ICE has been accused of performing large numbers of forced sterilizations within camps in US borders. > https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-enforcement-medical-care-detainees/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-... The hysterectomies weren't US or ICE policy, they were the result of poor oversight of one contract doctor who was committing malpractice. https://theintercept.com/2021/05/20/ice-irwin-hysterectomies-medical/ https://theintercept.com/2021/05/20/ice-irwin-hysterectomies... > ICE stopped sending immigrant women to Amin after the allegations of nonconsensual and unnecessary procedures came to light. The FBI is currently investigating Amin for a series of unnecessary, rough, or abusive procedures, according to a report in Prism by Tina Vásquez earlier this month. Amin is the doctor.
- monocasa 4y ago
  The feds shut down the entire facility after the allegations came out. It wasn't a case of one doctor.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > The feds shut down the entire facility after the allegations came out. It wasn't a case of one doctor. Well the hysterectomy thing was the one doctor (and the facility failing at its duty to properly oversee him). However, it wouldn't surprise me if there were other issues there as well.
    - monocasa 4y ago
      Habitually performing major surgery without informed consent is a structural problem that can't be pinned on a single doctor. An incredible amount of checks have to break down to get to that point.
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        > Habitually performing major surgery without informed consent is a structural problem that can't be pinned on a single doctor. An incredible amount of checks have to break down to get to that point. We agree.