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I think a major resentment people have when they see these "moral stands" by the US, is that in its literal present day actions, neither US nor China "stand up
by dundarious 5y ago
I think a major resentment people have when they see these "moral stands" by the US, is that in its literal present day actions, neither US nor China "stand up against oppression in general not just when you can benefit", but also, China does not rhetorically claim to do so -- the US does make that false claim.
The easy present day case to back up this claim that the US does not "stand up against oppression..." is Yemen: https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113852 https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113852. With various slight modifications, and given enough time to explain, you can add a host of other countries to that list: Afghanistan, Syria, Israel+Palestine, etc. Go back 20-30 years and you can add Iraq. Go back a little further and add Indonesia+East Timor, Iran, most of South and Central America. It's more complicated to make the case, and there are still too many uncertainties about what actually happened, but you could probably even add "nice, Western" countries like Italy to that list.
The point is, China often uses this false talk of "moral stands" as a (mostly sarcastic) retort to the US, because the US sincerely engages in the same false talk in 90% of its communications and more importantly, in material actions that affect actual lives on the ground.
- nukemaster 5y agoBut we do try to make things right for US citizens (and often foreigners) inside our own borders. What happens inside your borders is way more important than outside. I don't think what we've done in the middle east is remotely good but it's substantially different.
- dundarious 5y agoI don't think that matters really. First, I don't see the point in doing moral rankings. If I live in the US and the US does a bad thing, that's what I should care most about (up to a point). Even if I thought, "well, my morality points ranking shows China's worse", that shouldn't affect my political decisions in the US, where I can influence US decisions but not Chinese ones. But sure, if I have to pick which country to live in, on this metric I'd probably pick the US (we're smoothing over some extremely significant internal problems in the US here, but not directly comparable to Xinjiang, so OK, let's side-step them for the moment). But that's a pretty selfish view. Good conditions at home don't justify imposing awful conditions abroad. To think so is literally imperial logic. I realize using phrases like "imperial" induces eye-rolling in some, but it's appropriate for the concept we're discussing here. The US's cold calculating cruelty is perhaps less obvious, but it undoubtedly impacts far more lives and deaths. So while I won't weigh in on whether the US is an empire (don't care), if you buy into the logic that "we're only evil abroad, at home we try to be nice", then that is imperial logic.
- monocasa 5y agoICE has been accused of performing large numbers of forced sterilizations within camps in US borders. https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-enforcement-medical-care-detainees/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-...
- nukemaster 5y agoYes, that's not incompatible with what I said.
- monocasa 5y agoWhat part of forcing sterilizations in camps in our borders is 'making things right for foreigners'?
- nukemaster 5y agoOften != always.
- monocasa 5y agoI'm sure that's what the CCP says about the Uighurs.
- nukemaster 5y agoI think you should try rereading my comment.
- monocasa 5y agoPerhaps instead you should restate your argument in different words if you think you're being misunderstood.
- tablespoon 5y ago> ICE has been accused of performing large numbers of forced sterilizations within camps in US borders. > https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-enforcement-medical-care-detainees/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/15/politics/immigration-customs-... The hysterectomies weren't US or ICE policy, they were the result of poor oversight of one contract doctor who was committing malpractice. https://theintercept.com/2021/05/20/ice-irwin-hysterectomies-medical/ https://theintercept.com/2021/05/20/ice-irwin-hysterectomies... > ICE stopped sending immigrant women to Amin after the allegations of nonconsensual and unnecessary procedures came to light. The FBI is currently investigating Amin for a series of unnecessary, rough, or abusive procedures, according to a report in Prism by Tina Vásquez earlier this month. Amin is the doctor.