3 ms·

Alright. It is a township then. I refuse to go by the collective will. What happens next if violence is not an option and private property is respected?

pmyteh 5y ago
In general, you have the same three choices you have in any other situation where you don't like what's going on: loyalty, voice, or exit. In the first, you decide to accept the general will in order to maintain your individual credit, hoping that by cooperating on this occasion you encourage people to encourage with you later. Alternatively, you can protest the decision, hoping in doing so to encourage your fellow townspeople to change their mind, or to raise the reputation cost to them of proceeding down that route. And if you don't like that either, you can leave (highly visibly or otherwise). Not all collective decision-making processes are coercive, either, FWIW. There are systems built on unanimity where your issue doesn't even arise: if you dislike the decision of the other group members enough then you can veto the decision. This creates other issues (and doesn't scale very well) but it does happen.
- luciusdomitius 5y ago
  Look. It is a very simple question. The township has a 1 promile property tax. I never pay it and refuse to leave my property. What happens next? You guys wrote 5 walls of text just dodging the easiest question on Earth.
  - pmyteh 5y ago
    I gave you an answer. You can suck it up, complain, or leave. And yes, those choices are unpleasant. If this was supposed to be a 'actually it all comes down to the threat of violence' gotcha then, sure - if you insist on your property rights, don't pay your taxes and then decide to fight the bailiffs you're going to have a bad time. Sorry.
    - luciusdomitius 5y ago
      You did not answer - you listed my options and I was asking for the reaction of the collective. Because I know that functional illiteracy is becoming a serious problem, I'll do my best to help you: "How exactly are they going to limit my options to those, what are they going to do specifically?"
      - TuringNYC 5y ago
        Specifically, the township would put a property tax lien on your property. Eventually, the liens would pile up and your property would have so many liens you'd have no value left in your house. Then the township would take you to court to enforce their right to collect the judgements. At that point, you'd most likely be forced to move out. The township would sell your home to recover the tax liens and judgements. A sheriff would forcibly remove you from your home in such cases. Presumably, you could buy another home in the same township, and go thru all the above processes again. OR you could choose one of the original options given by a parent post: 1. Go to town hall and influence decisions 2. Exit township, find one that you agree with 3. Bear with it and stay in the township.
        anonfornoreason 5y ago
        So, violence?
        luciusdomitius 5y ago
        " A sheriff would forcibly remove you from your home in such cases." So, this is your "non-violent" collectivism? Thank you very much. This is all I needed to hear.
  - don_esteban 5y ago
    You never leave your property and live a happy life in solitude there until you die of boredom or starvation. Everybody is happy to not have to interact with you anymore. Now stop bringing up absurd examples. Just living in a state exposes you to state violence, e.g. for not obeying the (tax) law. If you wanted a realistic example of non-violent society, there are only few, mostly small remote tribes in deep jungle. Not surprisingly, those are very collectivist societies. The standard response to repeated badly non-conforming behavior in such societies is eviction from the community. Yes, that can be done non-violently.
    - zekrioca 5y ago
      I think the person meant about how the few options available actually come to existence: how are they come to be the ones that would allow the person to pick one over the other? Is it common sense, is it because it was decided this way.. How?
      - TuringNYC 5y ago
        I think there are a lot of options. Across US states, counties, and townships, for example, there is a full spectrum of political positions literally w/r/t how money is collected (or not) and spent (or not)
    - vt85 4y ago
  - emkemp 5y ago
    Well, for starters, you may lose important local services. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346
    - luciusdomitius 5y ago
      This is perfectly alright and waaaaaay more libertarian than collectivist.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    You will starve as people refuse to provide you food, or allow you to use collective infrastructure, unless you leave. Your property will then become collective property.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- giantg2 5y ago
  "Not all collective decision-making processes are coercive, either," The process is not coercive, but the product is. Laws tend have punishments and are enforced through various levels of force or violence.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
Depending on the scenario, potentially nothing. There are certainly times and topics where people can break from the collective, with no hard feelings or repercussions on either side. In rural areas, this is typically how it works. Laws are more of suggestions, and unless you are causing a big problem for someone you are likely to be left alone.

pmyteh 5y ago

In general, you have the same three choices you have in any other situation where you don't like what's going on: loyalty, voice, or exit. In the first, you decide to accept the general will in order to maintain your individual credit, hoping that by cooperating on this occasion you encourage people to encourage with you later. Alternatively, you can protest the decision, hoping in doing so to encourage your fellow townspeople to change their mind, or to raise the reputation cost to them of proceeding down that route. And if you don't like that either, you can leave (highly visibly or otherwise). Not all collective decision-making processes are coercive, either, FWIW. There are systems built on unanimity where your issue doesn't even arise: if you dislike the decision of the other group members enough then you can veto the decision. This creates other issues (and doesn't scale very well) but it does happen.

luciusdomitius 5y ago
Look. It is a very simple question. The township has a 1 promile property tax. I never pay it and refuse to leave my property. What happens next? You guys wrote 5 walls of text just dodging the easiest question on Earth.
- pmyteh 5y ago
  I gave you an answer. You can suck it up, complain, or leave. And yes, those choices are unpleasant. If this was supposed to be a 'actually it all comes down to the threat of violence' gotcha then, sure - if you insist on your property rights, don't pay your taxes and then decide to fight the bailiffs you're going to have a bad time. Sorry.
  - luciusdomitius 5y ago
    You did not answer - you listed my options and I was asking for the reaction of the collective. Because I know that functional illiteracy is becoming a serious problem, I'll do my best to help you: "How exactly are they going to limit my options to those, what are they going to do specifically?"
    - TuringNYC 5y ago
      Specifically, the township would put a property tax lien on your property. Eventually, the liens would pile up and your property would have so many liens you'd have no value left in your house. Then the township would take you to court to enforce their right to collect the judgements. At that point, you'd most likely be forced to move out. The township would sell your home to recover the tax liens and judgements. A sheriff would forcibly remove you from your home in such cases. Presumably, you could buy another home in the same township, and go thru all the above processes again. OR you could choose one of the original options given by a parent post: 1. Go to town hall and influence decisions 2. Exit township, find one that you agree with 3. Bear with it and stay in the township.
      - anonfornoreason 5y ago
        So, violence?
      - luciusdomitius 5y ago
        " A sheriff would forcibly remove you from your home in such cases." So, this is your "non-violent" collectivism? Thank you very much. This is all I needed to hear.
- don_esteban 5y ago
  You never leave your property and live a happy life in solitude there until you die of boredom or starvation. Everybody is happy to not have to interact with you anymore. Now stop bringing up absurd examples. Just living in a state exposes you to state violence, e.g. for not obeying the (tax) law. If you wanted a realistic example of non-violent society, there are only few, mostly small remote tribes in deep jungle. Not surprisingly, those are very collectivist societies. The standard response to repeated badly non-conforming behavior in such societies is eviction from the community. Yes, that can be done non-violently.
  - zekrioca 5y ago
    I think the person meant about how the few options available actually come to existence: how are they come to be the ones that would allow the person to pick one over the other? Is it common sense, is it because it was decided this way.. How?
    - TuringNYC 5y ago
      I think there are a lot of options. Across US states, counties, and townships, for example, there is a full spectrum of political positions literally w/r/t how money is collected (or not) and spent (or not)
  - vt85 4y ago
- emkemp 5y ago
  Well, for starters, you may lose important local services. https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346 https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna39516346
  - luciusdomitius 5y ago
    This is perfectly alright and waaaaaay more libertarian than collectivist.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  You will starve as people refuse to provide you food, or allow you to use collective infrastructure, unless you leave. Your property will then become collective property.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
giantg2 5y ago
"Not all collective decision-making processes are coercive, either," The process is not coercive, but the product is. Laws tend have punishments and are enforced through various levels of force or violence.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

Depending on the scenario, potentially nothing. There are certainly times and topics where people can break from the collective, with no hard feelings or repercussions on either side. In rural areas, this is typically how it works. Laws are more of suggestions, and unless you are causing a big problem for someone you are likely to be left alone.