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> even Italy (if you're forewarned what to expect). Out of curiosity, any example of the terrible things that may happen in Italy and that travelers should be

by jaclaz 5y ago

> even Italy (if you're forewarned what to expect). Out of curiosity, any example of the terrible things that may happen in Italy and that travelers should be forewarned about?

hilbert42 5y ago
> even Italy (if you're forewarned what to expect). Out of curiosity, any example of the terrible things that may happen in Italy and that travelers should be forewarned about? Apologies for laboring the (mostly) bleeding obvious in some of these points especially item 5, but it's only because I've seen people not bother to observe them and suffer the consequences (including this once-neophyte traveler—yours truly). :-) Note: this post is too long for a single comment, so I'll post it in parts. I suppose the definition of 'terrible' is important here. Anyway, here's some bits of advice gained from a few incidents that I've experienced in Italy, you be the judge of whether they're terrible or not. Whilst I've singled out Italian instances here of course most of what I've to say is pretty much common knowledge and general travel advice. It's just from my experience my comments are somewhat more applicable to Italy than to other Western European countries—although it's wise to consider other notable/problematic places, Amsterdam's main train terminus for instance. Better still, always consider any major train terminus where tourists gather as potentially hostile. First, I must say I love Italy, its people and their culture, its cities and beautiful countryside not to mention its historical heritage—the Roman Empire, et al. Anyway, here goes: 1. Always plan your trip to an Italian city when there's no major football match taking place (that's unless you are planning to attend the match). This is especially important if the match is between an Italian team and a foreign one (Europe's obsession with football is legendary, fans are passionate about their teams and are easily excited—'tis likely some wars have started over less drama). Visiting fans can be found all over parts of the city that you're likely to want to visit, and they can get very rowdy. 2. If You have to visit an Italian city when there's a football match on then make sure that you arrange your accommodation well beforehand as you can almost guarantee that every hotel will be fully booked out and you'll have nowhere to stay (again, this is very important if the opposing team is from another country as there will be many fans from that country visiting to see the match). I've learned this from hard experience. Moreover, sleeping overnight at railway stations is not only unpleasant but it's also dangerous. 3. If perchance you do arrive by train (or any other form of transport) and have not booked accommodation in advance when there's a football match about to take place then make sure you arrive early in the day. This is an absolute must, here's why: My first trip to Rome was done on the spur of the moment and I had no idea that any football match was about to take place let alone that it would be relevant to my visit—nor (given the circumstances of the match) did I have the vaguest notion that one must arrive early in the day to be of paramount importance (if there's any chance at all of getting accommodation then one must be early). As it happened my time of arrival in Rome couldn't have been worse, not only did I arrive just before a key football match was scheduled to kick-off but also I arrived very late in the day, around about 21h00. After phoning many hotels (all those with outlet facilities on the station as well as others listed on signboards), it was pretty clear that there was no remaining accommodation whatsoever left in Rome—or so I thought! After the phoning exercise, which achieving nothing of note, I was standing around on the station's concourse and perplexed as to what to do next when I began to be approached by numbers of guys all of whom were offering accommodation. As I later found out they were lone operators and they spoke just sufficient English to get across the point that they were offering me accommodation. Their demonstrable (or apparent) lack of English was such that I was unable to determine exactly what type of accommodation they were offering (suffice to say their 'limited' English was to their benefit, not mine). It's clear these opportunists were well aware of the shortage of accommodation throughout Rome during football times not to mention the arrival of unsuspecting visitors such as me and they took full advantage of the situation. Eventually after weighing up the situation and being somewhat desperate, I selected the most seemingly respectable offer. In fact, at no time was I ever told the actual nature of the accommodation although it wasn't for the want of trying (again, the language barrier was such that it was easier to give up—and I was damn tired into the bargain, by then I believed I'd accept any any accommodation—or so I thought). It was what happened after this that made me mention my earlier caveat 'if you're forewarned what to expect'. (I can elaborate further details if you wish.) 4. If traveling by train anywhere in Europe, especially so in Italy, then avoid any train that's traveling to a football match which is likely to be carrying football fans. Moreover, it's especially important not to do so on trains that are returning home from the match as the fans are noisy, boisterous and often very drunk. As mentioned elsewhere, not long after the match was over I took an overnight train from Rome to Vienna and it was full of fans who were returning home after the match (the match was between Italian and Austrian teams). It was a horrible experience to say the least. Returning fans misbehaved so badly that Austrian Customs and border police were not amused, they delayed the train for hours not to mention that they searched every inch of the train from one end to the other with Alsatian dogs at the ready (I've experienced such searches on many other occasions but this one was the worst). <continued>
- hilbert42 5y ago
  ... 5. If you're visiting Rome or any other Italian city no doubt you'll want to visit its historical sites (as you know, they're everywhere and hard to avoid). First, here's a warning to be careful to avoid pickpockets. On multiple occasions I've had swarms of very persistent kids swarm around me on the pretext of selling some grotty postcards or such and during the process they do everything possible to distract one and it's hard to keep track of what each one is doing. They're often in groups of six or more in number (and they're very common in and around Rome's main ruins). Moreover, some kids are very young and look harmless and genteel, but don't be fooled, they're not—they're all part of a well orchestrated team and you'll be done over if you're the slightest bit gullible and or not very careful. BTW, in this regard Rome was the worst of all the Italian cites I've visited. Never leave your wallet, your smartphone and or your passport in the back or side pockets of your pants (or side pockets of your jacket). If you are wearing jeans then place valuables deep down in your front pockets, better still put them in a money belt that's under your shirt. Also, be very careful about looking after anything else that you're carrying, a camera for instance (it's also best not to go alone as members of one's group can keep an eye on each other). Clearly, there's little point putting one's phone in an 'inaccessible' money belt, my solution for storing it safely but still within ready reach is to store it in the front pocket one's shirt. Warning however: as everyone knows, in recent years shirt pockets have atrophied in size to now being little more than a totally useless decoration. There are nevertheless several solutions: shirts from military disposals often have suitably large pockets, trouble is they either have no button or only a single button that almost everyone never bothers to button up. In either case when you lean over everything falls out including one's smartphone—crash, there's goes another screen, and that's the last thing you need on your trip. The best solution I've arrived at is to purchase several shirts of a suitable style well before one travels. Safari, trail/outdoor or nautical-type shirts that have both decent sized top front pockets complete with easy-close zippers—which you learn to zip closed by automatic reflex every time you put your phone back in your pocket—are, in my opinion, the best option. This extra effort might seem a nuisance but I can assure you it's well worth it. 6. The horrors (perhaps terrors) of diving in Italy. You'll get quite a shock when you first drive in Italy—that's unless you come from France, Germany or other country where maniacal drivers are commonplace—even then Italy has a special place on the maniacal drivers register. First, there are only two speeds in Italy—stop and flat out. Second, don't expect Italian drivers to obey the road rules in quite the same way that you'd expect that drivers do in anglophone countries, US, UK, Australia, etc. Yes, they actually obey road rules (sometimes) but what they'd deem as obeying the rules is very different, and it can take some experience and time to get used to the differences (eventually, you'll get the gist and be OK—that's if you're not killed first). There are three memorable instances in my life where I actually thought I'd die before reaching my destination: the first was on the autobahn from Stuttgart to Freiberg when one of my work colleagues—a German who'd migrated but who was back in Germany with me—was driving a small car that'd often get 'airborne' whenever he'd overtake trucks and that was as often as he possibly could (nothing in front of him was too much of a challenge). As the car was small and under-powered, overtaking was slow and dangerous (yet behind the wheel he still drove like a 'Fangio Mark-II', fortunately for me, like the real Juan Fangio, he had nine lives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Manuel_Fangio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Manuel_Fangio). Incidentally, my colleague once used to race Minis. The second was a local incident I'll not mention further, and the third was my first experience on the Autostrada A1—the motorway from Milan to Naples (that first time I was on my way from Milan to Rome): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A1_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A1_(Italy). The small rental car I was in could hardly make 100 mph (≈160km/h) on a gentle downhill and just about every car and trucks would pass and overtake me at such speed that the vortex they created buffeted the car with such intensity that they made steering extremely sloppy. Moreover, if one were to travel slower than about 160 km/h then one would likely be rear-ended especially so in foggy conditions (and at the time there was fog on some sections of the motorway). 'Fog—what's that, only sissies would slow down for fog?†' I'm not a timid driver, nor do I scare easily when others are driving but as a novice whose first introduction to driving Italian style was on the Autostrada A1 was certainly a memorable experience to say the least. As they say, it was like being unexpectedly dropped in at the deep end without warning. Here's another instance of the Italian motorists' driving style (I've already mentioned this previously some while ago). I observed this incident in the residential area of Florence. Here's the scene: the River Arno flows through Florence essentially cutting it in half, busy roads with large amounts of traffic follow along the Arno's banks for most of its length through the city. Whilst over a dozen bridges interconnect these roads on either side of the River there are many roads that run perpendicular to it but which do not intersect at points where the bridges are—that is, these perpendicular roads terminate in a 'T' intersection with the roads that follow the River. Now picture this, I've left my hotel and I'm walking along the sidewalk of one of the roads that's following the Arno's banks and I come across one of these busy 'T' intersections and its traffic lights are indicating red in the direction I'm walking. An impatient driver—impatience is a common characteristic of Italian drivers—in one of the 'stopped' vehicles intends to turn left into the intersecting right-angled street but the lights are against him (a pedestrian 'walk' sign is green on that road so he has a red left-arrow light indicating that he must stop). He hardly stops—then just before the traffic lights and intersection he immediately veers left to bypass both the roadway and the lights. That is, he turns hard left and mounts the sidewalk not that far in front of me then he disappears down the intersecting side street whilst now still traveling on its sidewalk (technically, he's avoided going through a red light and thus he's not broken that law but no doubt he's broken others). This is what I mean when I say Italian drivers (anyway, a significant number of them) interpret the road rules in ways that we'd not normally expect. However, that's not the end of the story: the moment after he disappeared driving down the intersecting street's sidewalk I heard a large crash. Upon arriving at the intersection and looking left I saw that he'd driven straight into a huge excavation hole in the sidewalk that was part of street maintenance work. What's more amazing is that when I'd gotten a little closer I could see that he wasn't alone as there were several other cars already in the ditch. That's not the only instance where I've seen Italian drivers bypass red lights in such a manner, however on those occasions there were no ditches around to catch them. 7. (This I've also mentioned previously.) I recall that when I visited the Colosseum in Rome, which incidentally is a fabulous place to visit (I could wax lyrically about it for hours), I came across something rather unexpected, that was the large number of discarded hypodermic syringes in and around the sidewalk that surrounds this monumental edifice. It seems the building wasn't only a huge tourist attraction but also it was a shoot-up gallery for local druggies (keep in mind, I've not been there for quite some time, so things may have been cleaned up since then). The lesson is that it's probably not a good idea to travel hippy-like in bare feet around any of these attractions (on my next visit I reckon I'll wear shoes with rather substantial soles). There's more but that'll have to do for now. __ † Not slowing down for fog is also a trait of Austrian and German drivers but from my experience they're marginally less gung-ho about it than Italians (they're more consistent drivers at high speed). I recall once being driven by an Austrian driver from Salzburg to Vienna on the motorway in not only fog but also sleet and rain at speeds in excess of 160 km/h (≈100 mph), it was another white-knuckle experience which would rate next down the list of those already mentioned. Incidentally, the trip was during the winter. When I suggested he slow down he retorted to the effect that 'I must be joking and that he'd be rear-ended in a second if he did that'. Seems these motorists' main aim is to keep constant speed, breaking not only results in rear-enders but one would almost certainly spin out of control on the icy road surface. Such driving isn't for the fainthearted.

by jaclaz 5y ago

> even Italy (if you're forewarned what to expect). Out of curiosity, any example of the terrible things that may happen in Italy and that travelers should be forewarned about?

hilbert42 5y ago

> even Italy (if you're forewarned what to expect). Out of curiosity, any example of the terrible things that may happen in Italy and that travelers should be forewarned about? Apologies for laboring the (mostly) bleeding obvious in some of these points especially item 5, but it's only because I've seen people not bother to observe them and suffer the consequences (including this once-neophyte traveler—yours truly). :-) Note: this post is too long for a single comment, so I'll post it in parts. I suppose the definition of 'terrible' is important here. Anyway, here's some bits of advice gained from a few incidents that I've experienced in Italy, you be the judge of whether they're terrible or not. Whilst I've singled out Italian instances here of course most of what I've to say is pretty much common knowledge and general travel advice. It's just from my experience my comments are somewhat more applicable to Italy than to other Western European countries—although it's wise to consider other notable/problematic places, Amsterdam's main train terminus for instance. Better still, always consider any major train terminus where tourists gather as potentially hostile. First, I must say I love Italy, its people and their culture, its cities and beautiful countryside not to mention its historical heritage—the Roman Empire, et al. Anyway, here goes: 1. Always plan your trip to an Italian city when there's no major football match taking place (that's unless you are planning to attend the match). This is especially important if the match is between an Italian team and a foreign one (Europe's obsession with football is legendary, fans are passionate about their teams and are easily excited—'tis likely some wars have started over less drama). Visiting fans can be found all over parts of the city that you're likely to want to visit, and they can get very rowdy. 2. If You have to visit an Italian city when there's a football match on then make sure that you arrange your accommodation well beforehand as you can almost guarantee that every hotel will be fully booked out and you'll have nowhere to stay (again, this is very important if the opposing team is from another country as there will be many fans from that country visiting to see the match). I've learned this from hard experience. Moreover, sleeping overnight at railway stations is not only unpleasant but it's also dangerous. 3. If perchance you do arrive by train (or any other form of transport) and have not booked accommodation in advance when there's a football match about to take place then make sure you arrive early in the day. This is an absolute must, here's why: My first trip to Rome was done on the spur of the moment and I had no idea that any football match was about to take place let alone that it would be relevant to my visit—nor (given the circumstances of the match) did I have the vaguest notion that one must arrive early in the day to be of paramount importance (if there's any chance at all of getting accommodation then one must be early). As it happened my time of arrival in Rome couldn't have been worse, not only did I arrive just before a key football match was scheduled to kick-off but also I arrived very late in the day, around about 21h00. After phoning many hotels (all those with outlet facilities on the station as well as others listed on signboards), it was pretty clear that there was no remaining accommodation whatsoever left in Rome—or so I thought! After the phoning exercise, which achieving nothing of note, I was standing around on the station's concourse and perplexed as to what to do next when I began to be approached by numbers of guys all of whom were offering accommodation. As I later found out they were lone operators and they spoke just sufficient English to get across the point that they were offering me accommodation. Their demonstrable (or apparent) lack of English was such that I was unable to determine exactly what type of accommodation they were offering (suffice to say their 'limited' English was to their benefit, not mine). It's clear these opportunists were well aware of the shortage of accommodation throughout Rome during football times not to mention the arrival of unsuspecting visitors such as me and they took full advantage of the situation. Eventually after weighing up the situation and being somewhat desperate, I selected the most seemingly respectable offer. In fact, at no time was I ever told the actual nature of the accommodation although it wasn't for the want of trying (again, the language barrier was such that it was easier to give up—and I was damn tired into the bargain, by then I believed I'd accept any any accommodation—or so I thought). It was what happened after this that made me mention my earlier caveat 'if you're forewarned what to expect'. (I can elaborate further details if you wish.) 4. If traveling by train anywhere in Europe, especially so in Italy, then avoid any train that's traveling to a football match which is likely to be carrying football fans. Moreover, it's especially important not to do so on trains that are returning home from the match as the fans are noisy, boisterous and often very drunk. As mentioned elsewhere, not long after the match was over I took an overnight train from Rome to Vienna and it was full of fans who were returning home after the match (the match was between Italian and Austrian teams). It was a horrible experience to say the least. Returning fans misbehaved so badly that Austrian Customs and border police were not amused, they delayed the train for hours not to mention that they searched every inch of the train from one end to the other with Alsatian dogs at the ready (I've experienced such searches on many other occasions but this one was the worst). <continued>

hilbert42 5y ago
... 5. If you're visiting Rome or any other Italian city no doubt you'll want to visit its historical sites (as you know, they're everywhere and hard to avoid). First, here's a warning to be careful to avoid pickpockets. On multiple occasions I've had swarms of very persistent kids swarm around me on the pretext of selling some grotty postcards or such and during the process they do everything possible to distract one and it's hard to keep track of what each one is doing. They're often in groups of six or more in number (and they're very common in and around Rome's main ruins). Moreover, some kids are very young and look harmless and genteel, but don't be fooled, they're not—they're all part of a well orchestrated team and you'll be done over if you're the slightest bit gullible and or not very careful. BTW, in this regard Rome was the worst of all the Italian cites I've visited. Never leave your wallet, your smartphone and or your passport in the back or side pockets of your pants (or side pockets of your jacket). If you are wearing jeans then place valuables deep down in your front pockets, better still put them in a money belt that's under your shirt. Also, be very careful about looking after anything else that you're carrying, a camera for instance (it's also best not to go alone as members of one's group can keep an eye on each other). Clearly, there's little point putting one's phone in an 'inaccessible' money belt, my solution for storing it safely but still within ready reach is to store it in the front pocket one's shirt. Warning however: as everyone knows, in recent years shirt pockets have atrophied in size to now being little more than a totally useless decoration. There are nevertheless several solutions: shirts from military disposals often have suitably large pockets, trouble is they either have no button or only a single button that almost everyone never bothers to button up. In either case when you lean over everything falls out including one's smartphone—crash, there's goes another screen, and that's the last thing you need on your trip. The best solution I've arrived at is to purchase several shirts of a suitable style well before one travels. Safari, trail/outdoor or nautical-type shirts that have both decent sized top front pockets complete with easy-close zippers—which you learn to zip closed by automatic reflex every time you put your phone back in your pocket—are, in my opinion, the best option. This extra effort might seem a nuisance but I can assure you it's well worth it. 6. The horrors (perhaps terrors) of diving in Italy. You'll get quite a shock when you first drive in Italy—that's unless you come from France, Germany or other country where maniacal drivers are commonplace—even then Italy has a special place on the maniacal drivers register. First, there are only two speeds in Italy—stop and flat out. Second, don't expect Italian drivers to obey the road rules in quite the same way that you'd expect that drivers do in anglophone countries, US, UK, Australia, etc. Yes, they actually obey road rules (sometimes) but what they'd deem as obeying the rules is very different, and it can take some experience and time to get used to the differences (eventually, you'll get the gist and be OK—that's if you're not killed first). There are three memorable instances in my life where I actually thought I'd die before reaching my destination: the first was on the autobahn from Stuttgart to Freiberg when one of my work colleagues—a German who'd migrated but who was back in Germany with me—was driving a small car that'd often get 'airborne' whenever he'd overtake trucks and that was as often as he possibly could (nothing in front of him was too much of a challenge). As the car was small and under-powered, overtaking was slow and dangerous (yet behind the wheel he still drove like a 'Fangio Mark-II', fortunately for me, like the real Juan Fangio, he had nine lives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Manuel_Fangio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Manuel_Fangio). Incidentally, my colleague once used to race Minis. The second was a local incident I'll not mention further, and the third was my first experience on the Autostrada A1—the motorway from Milan to Naples (that first time I was on my way from Milan to Rome): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A1_(Italy) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autostrada_A1_(Italy). The small rental car I was in could hardly make 100 mph (≈160km/h) on a gentle downhill and just about every car and trucks would pass and overtake me at such speed that the vortex they created buffeted the car with such intensity that they made steering extremely sloppy. Moreover, if one were to travel slower than about 160 km/h then one would likely be rear-ended especially so in foggy conditions (and at the time there was fog on some sections of the motorway). 'Fog—what's that, only sissies would slow down for fog?†' I'm not a timid driver, nor do I scare easily when others are driving but as a novice whose first introduction to driving Italian style was on the Autostrada A1 was certainly a memorable experience to say the least. As they say, it was like being unexpectedly dropped in at the deep end without warning. Here's another instance of the Italian motorists' driving style (I've already mentioned this previously some while ago). I observed this incident in the residential area of Florence. Here's the scene: the River Arno flows through Florence essentially cutting it in half, busy roads with large amounts of traffic follow along the Arno's banks for most of its length through the city. Whilst over a dozen bridges interconnect these roads on either side of the River there are many roads that run perpendicular to it but which do not intersect at points where the bridges are—that is, these perpendicular roads terminate in a 'T' intersection with the roads that follow the River. Now picture this, I've left my hotel and I'm walking along the sidewalk of one of the roads that's following the Arno's banks and I come across one of these busy 'T' intersections and its traffic lights are indicating red in the direction I'm walking. An impatient driver—impatience is a common characteristic of Italian drivers—in one of the 'stopped' vehicles intends to turn left into the intersecting right-angled street but the lights are against him (a pedestrian 'walk' sign is green on that road so he has a red left-arrow light indicating that he must stop). He hardly stops—then just before the traffic lights and intersection he immediately veers left to bypass both the roadway and the lights. That is, he turns hard left and mounts the sidewalk not that far in front of me then he disappears down the intersecting side street whilst now still traveling on its sidewalk (technically, he's avoided going through a red light and thus he's not broken that law but no doubt he's broken others). This is what I mean when I say Italian drivers (anyway, a significant number of them) interpret the road rules in ways that we'd not normally expect. However, that's not the end of the story: the moment after he disappeared driving down the intersecting street's sidewalk I heard a large crash. Upon arriving at the intersection and looking left I saw that he'd driven straight into a huge excavation hole in the sidewalk that was part of street maintenance work. What's more amazing is that when I'd gotten a little closer I could see that he wasn't alone as there were several other cars already in the ditch. That's not the only instance where I've seen Italian drivers bypass red lights in such a manner, however on those occasions there were no ditches around to catch them. 7. (This I've also mentioned previously.) I recall that when I visited the Colosseum in Rome, which incidentally is a fabulous place to visit (I could wax lyrically about it for hours), I came across something rather unexpected, that was the large number of discarded hypodermic syringes in and around the sidewalk that surrounds this monumental edifice. It seems the building wasn't only a huge tourist attraction but also it was a shoot-up gallery for local druggies (keep in mind, I've not been there for quite some time, so things may have been cleaned up since then). The lesson is that it's probably not a good idea to travel hippy-like in bare feet around any of these attractions (on my next visit I reckon I'll wear shoes with rather substantial soles). There's more but that'll have to do for now. __ † Not slowing down for fog is also a trait of Austrian and German drivers but from my experience they're marginally less gung-ho about it than Italians (they're more consistent drivers at high speed). I recall once being driven by an Austrian driver from Salzburg to Vienna on the motorway in not only fog but also sleet and rain at speeds in excess of 160 km/h (≈100 mph), it was another white-knuckle experience which would rate next down the list of those already mentioned. Incidentally, the trip was during the winter. When I suggested he slow down he retorted to the effect that 'I must be joking and that he'd be rear-ended in a second if he did that'. Seems these motorists' main aim is to keep constant speed, breaking not only results in rear-enders but one would almost certainly spin out of control on the icy road surface. Such driving isn't for the fainthearted.