7 ms·

Okay, let's do the math. Consider a 2 hour flight, say Madrid -> Paris. A round trip is something like 140 eur. Boeing 737-800 burns something like 3000 liters

by xyzzyz 5y ago

Okay, let's do the math. Consider a 2 hour flight, say Madrid -> Paris. A round trip is something like 140 eur. Boeing 737-800 burns something like 3000 liters of jet fuel/hour, and will typically carry something like 150 passengers. That's 40 liters per person. Jet fuel is really pricey now, something like 80 cents/liter. This means that fuel costs something like 30 eur per flight per passenger, so 60 eur in a round trip. Now imagine we slap a tax on jet fuel similar to the one on vehicle gasoline. This would mean that the price of jet fuel would go up by 50%. The round trip ticket Madrid - Paris now costs 170 eur instead of 140 eur. Would it make Madrid - Paris train route competitive? No, not at all. Truth is, you can make anything competitive with anything else if you put heavy enough finger on the scale, but the reason flights are much cheaper than trains, despite being faster, is not because of lack of jet fuel taxes.

lorenzfx 5y ago
According to this [1], taxes on gasoline are much higher than 40 cents/litre (50 cents in Spain, 68 cents in France). If you buy a train ticket in advance, you definitely are in that price scale. I looked up train rides one month in advance [2] and a ride from Madrid to Spain is now 175€ to 210€, right in the range of the train ride. But hopefully, Europe-wide CO2 taxes will start to price in externalities and remove the finger from the scale in favor of flights. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/ https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/ [2] https://www.raileurope.com/en/journey/madrid-paris-14skjpm https://www.raileurope.com/en/journey/madrid-paris-14skjpm
- einpoklum 5y ago
  That ticket-in-advance thing is a part of the problem. For some unclear reason, some European countries let ticket prices skyrocket if you want to just go down to the train station and grab a train. How is this a good thing? And don't tell me it's important for planning loads: The schedules are mostly fixed anyway, and the usage doesn't fluctuate that wildly. In some countries, like the Netherlands, this is not a thing, and the national train (NS) behaves just like a city metro: You wave your pass walking on to the platform, and wave it again on the way out.
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    This is called market segmentation, and in competitive markets (like, say, flying or hotels) it’s a good thing: it allows the carrier to sell early tickets at very low prices, often well below the actual marginal cost of the last seat, because these losses will be made up by people who have urgent need for travel right now, and so are much less price sensitive. That’s how, for example, RyanAir is able to offer those 20 EUR cross Europe fares, which is well below even just the fuel cost, much less other costs.
DocTomoe 5y ago
> Would it make Madrid - Paris train route competitive? No, not at all. Just to provide some data points: Madrid-Paris by train takes about 17-20 hours and costs between 261 and 350 Euros. By plane, it takes about two and a half hours and costs (in your example) around 170 Euros. Also take into account that for many international travellers, the time saved aspect is more relevant than the money saved aspect, as lifetime is a very limited and non-regenerating resource, and planes will win pretty much always. The idea of Europeans going from Madrid to Paris by train happily is a green pipe dream outside train enthusiast circles (for our American friends: How often would you say you take Amtrak from Chicago to New York, roughly the same distance, before you get bored of it?)
- pg314 5y ago
  You can find a ticket from Madrid to Paris taking 10.5 hours for 226 EUR.
  - DocTomoe 5y ago
    Can you? Seems that connection does not run regularly either when it comes to time (I checked Trainline and on another date there actually was a connection much like that) or for that pricepoint. 10.5 hours is still longer than 2.5 (or maybe - if you include security checkpoint time - 3.5 hours) by plane.
    - egman_ekki 5y ago
      I think you're underestimating the travel to/from the airport. Madrid city centre to airport takes 45 minutes, you should be at the airport at least 2 hours prior to the departure, Paris airport to city centre takes another hour. Even if you're a seasoned traveller who pushes it and come to the airport just one hour prior to departure, you should still count with at least 3h overhead.
      - DocTomoe 5y ago
        Point is: You don't often need to travel to the city center, and choosing that as fictional final destination is giving trains an unfair advantage. Often you need to somewhere NEAR Paris. Also, and this may be related to the airports I fly out of, but I have hardly ever had planned more than an hour of time from entering an airport terminal to the gate. In TXL (sadly closed now for the much inferior BER), I averaged 25 minutes. At Stuttgart, I once managed to get there in 20. It all comes down to being prepared for security, knowing which security controls are often underused and picking up the right departure times. rel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNyUGhXTsw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNyUGhXTsw
alkonaut 5y ago
I pay more than 100% in petrol taxes when I fill my car at $2.50/liter. Also, CDG-MAD flight isn't really between Paris and Madrid but between CDG and MAD, which have some additional costs associated with transfers (assuming you are actually going beteween the city centers). So to be competitive a train ride might not need to have the flight price exactly, but can be a bot more expensive. But a sensible policy would be that when trains are more expensive, taxes should be put on flying until they aren't (taxes directed to trains through subsidies, infrastructure investment and so on).

by xyzzyz 5y ago

lorenzfx 5y ago

According to this [1], taxes on gasoline are much higher than 40 cents/litre (50 cents in Spain, 68 cents in France). If you buy a train ticket in advance, you definitely are in that price scale. I looked up train rides one month in advance [2] and a ride from Madrid to Spain is now 175€ to 210€, right in the range of the train ride. But hopefully, Europe-wide CO2 taxes will start to price in externalities and remove the finger from the scale in favor of flights. [1] https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/ https://taxfoundation.org/gas-taxes-in-europe/ [2] https://www.raileurope.com/en/journey/madrid-paris-14skjpm https://www.raileurope.com/en/journey/madrid-paris-14skjpm

einpoklum 5y ago
That ticket-in-advance thing is a part of the problem. For some unclear reason, some European countries let ticket prices skyrocket if you want to just go down to the train station and grab a train. How is this a good thing? And don't tell me it's important for planning loads: The schedules are mostly fixed anyway, and the usage doesn't fluctuate that wildly. In some countries, like the Netherlands, this is not a thing, and the national train (NS) behaves just like a city metro: You wave your pass walking on to the platform, and wave it again on the way out.
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  This is called market segmentation, and in competitive markets (like, say, flying or hotels) it’s a good thing: it allows the carrier to sell early tickets at very low prices, often well below the actual marginal cost of the last seat, because these losses will be made up by people who have urgent need for travel right now, and so are much less price sensitive. That’s how, for example, RyanAir is able to offer those 20 EUR cross Europe fares, which is well below even just the fuel cost, much less other costs.

DocTomoe 5y ago

> Would it make Madrid - Paris train route competitive? No, not at all. Just to provide some data points: Madrid-Paris by train takes about 17-20 hours and costs between 261 and 350 Euros. By plane, it takes about two and a half hours and costs (in your example) around 170 Euros. Also take into account that for many international travellers, the time saved aspect is more relevant than the money saved aspect, as lifetime is a very limited and non-regenerating resource, and planes will win pretty much always. The idea of Europeans going from Madrid to Paris by train happily is a green pipe dream outside train enthusiast circles (for our American friends: How often would you say you take Amtrak from Chicago to New York, roughly the same distance, before you get bored of it?)

pg314 5y ago
You can find a ticket from Madrid to Paris taking 10.5 hours for 226 EUR.
- DocTomoe 5y ago
  Can you? Seems that connection does not run regularly either when it comes to time (I checked Trainline and on another date there actually was a connection much like that) or for that pricepoint. 10.5 hours is still longer than 2.5 (or maybe - if you include security checkpoint time - 3.5 hours) by plane.
  - egman_ekki 5y ago
    I think you're underestimating the travel to/from the airport. Madrid city centre to airport takes 45 minutes, you should be at the airport at least 2 hours prior to the departure, Paris airport to city centre takes another hour. Even if you're a seasoned traveller who pushes it and come to the airport just one hour prior to departure, you should still count with at least 3h overhead.
    - DocTomoe 5y ago
      Point is: You don't often need to travel to the city center, and choosing that as fictional final destination is giving trains an unfair advantage. Often you need to somewhere NEAR Paris. Also, and this may be related to the airports I fly out of, but I have hardly ever had planned more than an hour of time from entering an airport terminal to the gate. In TXL (sadly closed now for the much inferior BER), I averaged 25 minutes. At Stuttgart, I once managed to get there in 20. It all comes down to being prepared for security, knowing which security controls are often underused and picking up the right departure times. rel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNyUGhXTsw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnNyUGhXTsw

alkonaut 5y ago

I pay more than 100% in petrol taxes when I fill my car at $2.50/liter. Also, CDG-MAD flight isn't really between Paris and Madrid but between CDG and MAD, which have some additional costs associated with transfers (assuming you are actually going beteween the city centers). So to be competitive a train ride might not need to have the flight price exactly, but can be a bot more expensive. But a sensible policy would be that when trains are more expensive, taxes should be put on flying until they aren't (taxes directed to trains through subsidies, infrastructure investment and so on).