4 ms·

A lot of what you said is reasonable, but I think you're really stretching your argument when you say that 1) liberals refrain from advocating for the "two-pare

A lot of what you said is reasonable, but I think you're really stretching your argument when you say that 1) liberals refrain from advocating for the "two-parent family" because to do so would imply pushing back on workplace equity and benefits for single parents, and 2) support for fathers' inclusion in paid family leave is proof that liberals care about two-parent families. I think you are seriously underplaying a very real strain in left-wing thought, which views the "traditional family" with extreme suspicion, and associates exhortations for couples to marry before they have kids, to stay together for the sake of the kids, and so on, as essentially patriarchal, religious encroachments on personal liberty. Since you want hard poll evidence, I browsed Gallup and found a poll: 41% of Republicans vs. 61% of Democrats think having kids outside of marriage is "morally acceptable". [1] 61% of Republicans vs. 73% of Democrats think divorce is acceptable. [1] Interestingly, you can look at [2] and see that these issues fall pretty neatly into OP's argument about "luxury beliefs". For instance, on the "having kids outside of marriage" issue, only 38% of black Democrats think it is morally acceptable, but 64% of non-black Democrats think it is morally acceptable. The black vs. non-black numbers for sex outside of marriage are 46% to 68%. Given the prevalence of exactly these behaviors in the black community relative to the white community, I think that this constitutes pretty hard evidence that OP's "luxury beliefs" hypothesis has a lot going for it. [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/137357/Four-Moral-Issues-Sharply-Divide-Americans.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/137357/Four-Moral-Issues-Sharpl... [2] https://news.gallup.com/poll/112807/Blacks-Conservative-Republicans-Some-Moral-Issues.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/112807/Blacks-Conservative-Repu...

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magicalist 5y ago
> having kids outside of marriage is "morally acceptable" > divorce is acceptable is not evidence for > views the "traditional family" with extreme suspicion 68% of democrats find embryonic stem cell research morally acceptable...clearly they view "traditional procreation" with extreme suspicion!
- ambrozk 5y ago
  I said 'a strain in left-wing thought views the "traditional family" with extreme suspicion.' I didn't say "the majority of Democrats". The polls in question demonstrate that Democrats (though only the white ones) are proportionally more likely than Republicans to make statements in tension with a desire for 2-parent households. OP asked for hard data to back up the hypothesis that Republicans are stronger in their political commitments to 2-parent households than Democrats, and I tried to produce something like that. If you have more compelling data that points in the opposite direction, by all means post it.
  - magicalist 5y ago
    > If you have more compelling data that points in the opposite direction, by all means post it A non sequitur does not change the onus here. I don't need data to point out that what you're stating doesn't follow.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    But you haven't provided any evidence. Your data point is that more Democrats than Republicans think having a child out of wedlock is morally acceptable. I think having a child out of wedlock is morally acceptable. Raising children is praiseworthy no matter what. But I absolutely do believe that children benefit from having two parents as well. The ambiguity here is central to my complaint about what Rayiner is trying to say.

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magicalist 5y ago

> having kids outside of marriage is "morally acceptable" > divorce is acceptable is not evidence for > views the "traditional family" with extreme suspicion 68% of democrats find embryonic stem cell research morally acceptable...clearly they view "traditional procreation" with extreme suspicion!

ambrozk 5y ago
I said 'a strain in left-wing thought views the "traditional family" with extreme suspicion.' I didn't say "the majority of Democrats". The polls in question demonstrate that Democrats (though only the white ones) are proportionally more likely than Republicans to make statements in tension with a desire for 2-parent households. OP asked for hard data to back up the hypothesis that Republicans are stronger in their political commitments to 2-parent households than Democrats, and I tried to produce something like that. If you have more compelling data that points in the opposite direction, by all means post it.
- magicalist 5y ago
  > If you have more compelling data that points in the opposite direction, by all means post it A non sequitur does not change the onus here. I don't need data to point out that what you're stating doesn't follow.
- tptacek 5y ago
  But you haven't provided any evidence. Your data point is that more Democrats than Republicans think having a child out of wedlock is morally acceptable. I think having a child out of wedlock is morally acceptable. Raising children is praiseworthy no matter what. But I absolutely do believe that children benefit from having two parents as well. The ambiguity here is central to my complaint about what Rayiner is trying to say.