6 ms·

40 years of austerity in the west. Life span actually decreasing. Desperate people act out.

by mymythisisthis 5y ago

inter_netuser 5y ago
The west hasn’t seen proper austerity yet, just barely warming up. Maybe soon.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  > The west hasn’t seen proper austerity yet, just barely warming up. European Troika (EC+ECB+IMF) debt induced Austerity literally _caused_ deaths in the heart of Europe. [0] This pretty much seems like 'proper' austerity unless you feel that we need perestroika living conditions for austerity to be real. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/08/31/the-terrible-human-cost-of-greeces-bailouts/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/08/31/the-t...
  - mise_en_place 5y ago
    The austerity will come when yields spike to 10%.
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    All sorts of government policies induce deaths: leaded gasoline, lax pharmaceutical safety, etc. Maybe we should be more frank? Debt is an abomination and is evil.
VictorPath 5y ago
Also with productivity gains, the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage of half a century ago is the same as it was in 2018, and it has popped slightly up and down since the . All gains have been sucked up by the heirs, the aristocracy.
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  The way this stuff is measured is broken. The baskets of goods aren't comparable. Given the choice between a $1000 (real) basket of goods from 1956 and a $1000 (real) basket of goods from 2022, which would you pick? To me the answer is obvious, 2022. Everything you get will be better. Better textiles, better food, cheap electronics...
  - freeone3000 5y ago
    From 1956? I'll take the automobile, please.
    - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
      I should've specified whether it was 1956 dollars or 2022 dollars. "Real" means inflation-adjusted. I was thinking of 2022 dollars, so you can't have the automobile. Were we doing it the other way around, $1000 1956 dollars is only $10,700 2022 dollars. You might be able to get a car for $1k in 1956, but it's going to be strictly worse than a 2022 car--the two things aren't comparable. Which is a large part of my point.
      - freeone3000 5y ago
        Then I'll take three sets of skirts and dresses (total $30), made of cotton and available in size 16(!) (not a plus size, just, in the regular size lineup!). I'll take a grocery shopping trip, which not only will cost me less than $10 but all of the food will be local and in-season. And I'll take a month of rent in Montreal ($60) to round it out. If you prefer, I could have blown it all on a single college course, but that seems to belie the idea of a basket. :P The declining prices are primarily in durable consumer goods, fuel energy, and consumer electronics. Food, healthcare, education, and rent (the things you need to live) have far outpaced "inflation" -- and this is more relevant to the average person because you don't buy a TV every year, but surely you buy bread every week.
    - brewdad 5y ago
NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
People aren't desperate in the West, not by a long shot. It's popular to complain in this particular way, but it just isn't borne out by facts. We are so rich that our poor are chronically fat. Even very poor people have very high standards of material living. Refrigerators, televisions, heat, etc. Many people in the world do not have these things still. There are people for whom lifespans are limited by things other than diseases of wealth (i.e., obesity). The basic problem at the core of your complaint, I think, is a too-uneven distribution of social status. The basic cause is is keeping up with the Joneses. You and I measure our social status relative to that of the other people we observe (both in person and via electronic media). It is entirely possible to be a person of very high social status who views himself as rich and privileged, but who nonetheless has a considerably lower material standard of living than even poor Americans. This could be a chief in a small-scale society, for instance. He can be king of his local mountain, but die early of easily preventable disease (There are other likely perks to his position that poor Americans won't usually get, though, like good mating opportunities and ample leisure time)
- acuozzo 5y ago
  > Even very poor people have very high standards of material living. True, but their standard of living is still worse than that of their parents which is what I believe OP is trying to convey. It's no longer possible for an assembly line worker to own a modest home; care for a stay-at-home-spouse; raise two children; go on a modest vacation once per year; save a little bit to deal with unexpected costs; and retire with a modest pension. This, more than anything else, is the fundamental cause of division in the US. It's what Michael Moore is highlighting in Roger & Me. It's the—now broken—social contract Gen X and Millennials were raised to trust. The ideological division we see today existed before the social contract was broken, but most people were too busy living their lives to care. I haven't looked too closely into this, but I'd bet that the total KKK membership count tracks pretty closely to the amount of economic stress experienced by the median American.
- dymk 5y ago
  > We are so rich that our poor are chronically fat Obesity overwhelmingly affects the very more than it affects the rich. They're also the who lose their legs to diabetes when they can't afford medical treatment. Basically, having access to calories does not mean that one is "rich" in any way, it's almost totally unrelated.

40 years of austerity in the west. Life span actually decreasing. Desperate people act out.

inter_netuser 5y ago

The west hasn’t seen proper austerity yet, just barely warming up. Maybe soon.

DoingIsLearning 5y ago
> The west hasn’t seen proper austerity yet, just barely warming up. European Troika (EC+ECB+IMF) debt induced Austerity literally _caused_ deaths in the heart of Europe. [0] This pretty much seems like 'proper' austerity unless you feel that we need perestroika living conditions for austerity to be real. [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/08/31/the-terrible-human-cost-of-greeces-bailouts/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola/2018/08/31/the-t...
- mise_en_place 5y ago
  The austerity will come when yields spike to 10%.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  All sorts of government policies induce deaths: leaded gasoline, lax pharmaceutical safety, etc. Maybe we should be more frank? Debt is an abomination and is evil.

VictorPath 5y ago

Also with productivity gains, the average inflation-adjusted hourly wage of half a century ago is the same as it was in 2018, and it has popped slightly up and down since the . All gains have been sucked up by the heirs, the aristocracy.

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
The way this stuff is measured is broken. The baskets of goods aren't comparable. Given the choice between a $1000 (real) basket of goods from 1956 and a $1000 (real) basket of goods from 2022, which would you pick? To me the answer is obvious, 2022. Everything you get will be better. Better textiles, better food, cheap electronics...
- freeone3000 5y ago
  From 1956? I'll take the automobile, please.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
    I should've specified whether it was 1956 dollars or 2022 dollars. "Real" means inflation-adjusted. I was thinking of 2022 dollars, so you can't have the automobile. Were we doing it the other way around, $1000 1956 dollars is only $10,700 2022 dollars. You might be able to get a car for $1k in 1956, but it's going to be strictly worse than a 2022 car--the two things aren't comparable. Which is a large part of my point.
    - freeone3000 5y ago
      Then I'll take three sets of skirts and dresses (total $30), made of cotton and available in size 16(!) (not a plus size, just, in the regular size lineup!). I'll take a grocery shopping trip, which not only will cost me less than $10 but all of the food will be local and in-season. And I'll take a month of rent in Montreal ($60) to round it out. If you prefer, I could have blown it all on a single college course, but that seems to belie the idea of a basket. :P The declining prices are primarily in durable consumer goods, fuel energy, and consumer electronics. Food, healthcare, education, and rent (the things you need to live) have far outpaced "inflation" -- and this is more relevant to the average person because you don't buy a TV every year, but surely you buy bread every week.
  - brewdad 5y ago

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago

People aren't desperate in the West, not by a long shot. It's popular to complain in this particular way, but it just isn't borne out by facts. We are so rich that our poor are chronically fat. Even very poor people have very high standards of material living. Refrigerators, televisions, heat, etc. Many people in the world do not have these things still. There are people for whom lifespans are limited by things other than diseases of wealth (i.e., obesity). The basic problem at the core of your complaint, I think, is a too-uneven distribution of social status. The basic cause is is keeping up with the Joneses. You and I measure our social status relative to that of the other people we observe (both in person and via electronic media). It is entirely possible to be a person of very high social status who views himself as rich and privileged, but who nonetheless has a considerably lower material standard of living than even poor Americans. This could be a chief in a small-scale society, for instance. He can be king of his local mountain, but die early of easily preventable disease (There are other likely perks to his position that poor Americans won't usually get, though, like good mating opportunities and ample leisure time)

acuozzo 5y ago
> Even very poor people have very high standards of material living. True, but their standard of living is still worse than that of their parents which is what I believe OP is trying to convey. It's no longer possible for an assembly line worker to own a modest home; care for a stay-at-home-spouse; raise two children; go on a modest vacation once per year; save a little bit to deal with unexpected costs; and retire with a modest pension. This, more than anything else, is the fundamental cause of division in the US. It's what Michael Moore is highlighting in Roger & Me. It's the—now broken—social contract Gen X and Millennials were raised to trust. The ideological division we see today existed before the social contract was broken, but most people were too busy living their lives to care. I haven't looked too closely into this, but I'd bet that the total KKK membership count tracks pretty closely to the amount of economic stress experienced by the median American.
dymk 5y ago
> We are so rich that our poor are chronically fat Obesity overwhelmingly affects the very more than it affects the rich. They're also the who lose their legs to diabetes when they can't afford medical treatment. Basically, having access to calories does not mean that one is "rich" in any way, it's almost totally unrelated.