6 ms·

Bad idea in mi opinion, this is a solved problem, overhead wires, the amount of energy lost between the converting water into hydrogen and then back into water

Bad idea in mi opinion, this is a solved problem, overhead wires, the amount of energy lost between the converting water into hydrogen and then back into water to get electricity can be as high as 70%, it's just a bad idea when you can use that energy directly using wire to get the same job done

sva_ 4y ago
Overhead wires are not a solution on a large scale, and also an eyesore.
- mcv 4y ago
  Overhead wires are most definitely a solution on a large scale, and are used as such all over the world. And especially in Europe.
  - sva_ 4y ago
    0% chance that Germans would tolerate these in their landscapes. Also, how do you think this would work with a train going 400kmh+?
    - mcv 4y ago
      They already do, and yes. How about looking at the facts first?
    - peristalique 4y ago
      How do you come to this conclusion? All high speed lines in Germany (ICE) are powered by overhead wires.
      - sva_ 4y ago
        Okay I was wrong. I thought it meant something different. > All high speed lines in Germany (ICE) I suppose almost all: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD
        mcv 4y ago
        Interesting. That one diesel HST wasn't very successful. It's been taken out of service again and the line is now operated by a slower train again. This seems to suggest that electric trains are more suitable for high-speed lines, although it's not clear why exactly this diesel train didn't perform the way it should.
        LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
        It was a 'tilting' train(leaning into the curve). Some part of that mechanism was constructed in wrong ways (too thin), which led to partial cracks, which led to partial derailing, trailing sparks. Which led to investigations of all of them, showing more cracks in development. So they have been "grounded" for a while, conventional trains taking over. Then it was deemed safe to operate them in non-tilting, conventional modes, which led to delays. So Deutsche Bahn wanted their money back, and got it. But no tilting diesel-trains.
    - rsynnott 4y ago
      Better inform the Germans. A little over half of the German rail network is electrified.
    - WHA8m 4y ago
      Oh dude, I'm all ears. What else do you think we (germans) think? I'm genuinely interested.
      - sva_ 4y ago
        I am German. Most of us hate cables that aren't underground (hence the bad internet connectivity, because it's expensive to upgrade the network underground). Based on that I extrapolated. I presumed the same to be the case for these overhead cables, as I don't usually see them where I live. https://www.bahnausbau-nordostbayern.de/files/img/Bahnstrom/Bahnstromnetz_Deutschland.jpg https://www.bahnausbau-nordostbayern.de/files/img/Bahnstrom/... It seems to be a lot more concentrated on the worse side of the rhine river. ;)
        WHA8m 4y ago
        I'm surprised I must say. I have never ever heard of anyone talking about 'Oberleitungen' being something that we should get rid of. It wouldn't have come to my mind to question them, so that's why I was so baffled (and maybe a bit harsh in my expression).
Manuel_D 4y ago
Overhead wires would involve a significant infrastructure investment. Not too much of an issue with more densely populated areas like Europe - and countries like France and Japan already do use overhead wires - but it is not cost competitive in sparse locations like much of North America. It's true that it's contingent on a carbon-free source of hydrogen. But if something like thermochemical hydrogen production through nuclear [1] or solar takes off, hydrogen fuel represents an energy-dense fuel that could be used in lieu of fossil fuels in many applications. 1. https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/gc/gc57inf-2-att1_en.pdf https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/gc/gc57inf-2-att1_e...
- mcv 4y ago
  > "Countries like France and Japan already do use overhead wires" Don't most countries already use these? World wide, a third of all rails is electrified in some way, and for long-distance rail, that's bound to be overhead. Most European rail is electrified. So hydrogen or any other diesel replacement is only relevant for very rural, very sparsely used lines.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    If a third of all rail is electrified then two thirds are not. Most of North America's railways are not electrified. Be cautious when looking at statistics on electrification: many results specifically only show electrification of passenger railways.
    - mcv 4y ago
      Yeah, the statistics on that are very interesting. Many European countries, but also countries like India, have 70+% of their rail network electrified Even Russia has 51% electrified, but in the US it's only 0.92%, Canada 0.20%, and Mexico 0.12%. No idea why North America is so adverse to electrification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tran... claims to include both passenger and non-passenger networks.
  - 4y ago

sva_ 4y ago

Overhead wires are not a solution on a large scale, and also an eyesore.

mcv 4y ago
Overhead wires are most definitely a solution on a large scale, and are used as such all over the world. And especially in Europe.
- sva_ 4y ago
  0% chance that Germans would tolerate these in their landscapes. Also, how do you think this would work with a train going 400kmh+?
  - mcv 4y ago
    They already do, and yes. How about looking at the facts first?
  - peristalique 4y ago
    How do you come to this conclusion? All high speed lines in Germany (ICE) are powered by overhead wires.
    - sva_ 4y ago
      Okay I was wrong. I thought it meant something different. > All high speed lines in Germany (ICE) I suppose almost all: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICE_TD
      - mcv 4y ago
        Interesting. That one diesel HST wasn't very successful. It's been taken out of service again and the line is now operated by a slower train again. This seems to suggest that electric trains are more suitable for high-speed lines, although it's not clear why exactly this diesel train didn't perform the way it should.
        LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
        It was a 'tilting' train(leaning into the curve). Some part of that mechanism was constructed in wrong ways (too thin), which led to partial cracks, which led to partial derailing, trailing sparks. Which led to investigations of all of them, showing more cracks in development. So they have been "grounded" for a while, conventional trains taking over. Then it was deemed safe to operate them in non-tilting, conventional modes, which led to delays. So Deutsche Bahn wanted their money back, and got it. But no tilting diesel-trains.
  - rsynnott 4y ago
    Better inform the Germans. A little over half of the German rail network is electrified.
  - WHA8m 4y ago
    Oh dude, I'm all ears. What else do you think we (germans) think? I'm genuinely interested.
    - sva_ 4y ago
      I am German. Most of us hate cables that aren't underground (hence the bad internet connectivity, because it's expensive to upgrade the network underground). Based on that I extrapolated. I presumed the same to be the case for these overhead cables, as I don't usually see them where I live. https://www.bahnausbau-nordostbayern.de/files/img/Bahnstrom/Bahnstromnetz_Deutschland.jpg https://www.bahnausbau-nordostbayern.de/files/img/Bahnstrom/... It seems to be a lot more concentrated on the worse side of the rhine river. ;)
      - WHA8m 4y ago
        I'm surprised I must say. I have never ever heard of anyone talking about 'Oberleitungen' being something that we should get rid of. It wouldn't have come to my mind to question them, so that's why I was so baffled (and maybe a bit harsh in my expression).

Manuel_D 4y ago

Overhead wires would involve a significant infrastructure investment. Not too much of an issue with more densely populated areas like Europe - and countries like France and Japan already do use overhead wires - but it is not cost competitive in sparse locations like much of North America. It's true that it's contingent on a carbon-free source of hydrogen. But if something like thermochemical hydrogen production through nuclear [1] or solar takes off, hydrogen fuel represents an energy-dense fuel that could be used in lieu of fossil fuels in many applications. 1. https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/gc/gc57inf-2-att1_en.pdf https://www.iaea.org/sites/default/files/gc/gc57inf-2-att1_e...

mcv 4y ago
> "Countries like France and Japan already do use overhead wires" Don't most countries already use these? World wide, a third of all rails is electrified in some way, and for long-distance rail, that's bound to be overhead. Most European rail is electrified. So hydrogen or any other diesel replacement is only relevant for very rural, very sparsely used lines.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  If a third of all rail is electrified then two thirds are not. Most of North America's railways are not electrified. Be cautious when looking at statistics on electrification: many results specifically only show electrification of passenger railways.
  - mcv 4y ago
    Yeah, the statistics on that are very interesting. Many European countries, but also countries like India, have 70+% of their rail network electrified Even Russia has 51% electrified, but in the US it's only 0.92%, Canada 0.20%, and Mexico 0.12%. No idea why North America is so adverse to electrification. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tran... claims to include both passenger and non-passenger networks.
- 4y ago