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Absolutely loved taking the train in Italy, fast, convenient, cheap, good amenities. Of course the country very much lends itself for rail (more or less an elon

Absolutely loved taking the train in Italy, fast, convenient, cheap, good amenities. Of course the country very much lends itself for rail (more or less an elongated territory that can run a very fast high-capacity north/south backbone, with slower but more ubiquitous horizontal offshoot rail to the various smaller cities and villages), but it was still very well done. Especially considering how much tunnelling was required. My big concern is that we're not really moving towards a single european market nor a single european train infrastructure system. I'm not sure if it can thrive as a patchwork of different ticketing systems and different rail systems. Without it it can't compete for international travel. And without it it's hard to get the right economies of scale.

moonchrome 4y ago
Just solving urban transport with train would be a huge thing here in Croatia. Rails are so shit that if you need to commute it's faster to travel through peak rush hour with a car than ride a train. It's depressing really because good rails would really connect less developed places near the capital and offload the pressure on city.
hedora 4y ago
As tourists, we got a Eurail pass, and international travel was as seamless as you could expect (at the time, the Italian trains were slow, the French trains stank, and the British ticketing offices were full of useless queues. The German trains were a little nerve wracking because the conductors were in a blind panic because the train was 30 seconds late). Anyway, some computer figured out the transfers for us, and the itineraries were fine. The only real problem was that we had to book weeks ahead. They physically mailed the tickets the US. I can't imagine it works like that now. Either way, it's proof the patchwork of national operators can work well together.
tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
In my experience, at least neighboring countries tend to be pretty good at selling you international tickets, and most people aren't interested in 17 hours journeys that could be replaced by a 2 hour flight. bahn.de will sell me (through an international website to which they redirect) a ticket from Frankfurt to London via Paris, an 8h40m trip costing 182 EUR one way for a date ~2 weeks out. The real issue is that I'm very unlikely to choose this option, no matter how convenient the booking, when I can get a round trip plane ticket for the same date for 156 EUR including luggage that will take 4-5 hours (including transit to/from the airport, security, boarding, waiting etc.) and gets advertised as 1h45m, 133 EUR.
- NoLinkToMe 4y ago
  > The real issue is that I'm very unlikely to choose this option, no matter how convenient the booking It's broader than just convenient booking, it's also integrated servicing, scheduling and infrastructure. With integrated scheduling you can get better connecting trains. > > bahn.de will sell me (through an international website to which they redirect) a ticket from Frankfurt to London via Paris, an 8h40m trip costing 182 EUR one way for a date ~2 weeks out. Frankfurt to Brussels is 3 hours, Brussels to London is 2 hours. It could be a 5 hour trip if the trains connected, very competitive to the 4-5 hours you mentioned. (And with existing technology the durations could be cut down by 30%). But if there's no connecting trains between the German-Belgian track, and the Belgian-UK track, then it will indeed take 8-9 hours. I'd definitely rather sit on a train. Relative to airplanes you typically get: - quiet - cheap/available wifi - spacious (leg room, work space) - large windows - easy access to your luggage (for work, food and recreation) - boarding experience that's less frustrating - boarding in a city centre as opposed to a peripheral airport Price remains an issue, but it's also an issue of scale and value proposition. The Italian trains I've been on were simply vastly superior experiences to whatever flight I ever took and quite cost-competitive. Take Bologna to Napels, it's a 600km route that is 3h 20m by train for just 38 euros, central station to central station. Flights certainly don't win out here. By comparison, Frankfurt to London is 640km as the bird flies. It seems once things start crossing borders and you get into disconnected international tracks, scheduling, ticketing, infrastructure, prices and connections start to suck. But that's in part a solvable issue that can be largely mitigated. If Italy can do a 600km track for 30 euros in 3.3 hours, that should be a attainable across Europe with the proper strategy and investments within 20 years. There's also the point of pricing in externalities for air flight, not doing so makes them unduly competitive. That's unlikely to last. Some countries are adding 10-20 euros to flight prices this year alone as a start, making 1-2 hour flights less interesting vs trains. Although I've read reports both ways (how flights are undertaxed, as well as how trains are already very subsidised) so I'm not sure on this point.
- iggldiggl 4y ago
  Some yes, others not so much. E.g. regarding France, using its regular online services DB will only sell tickets on the through trains from Germany, but nothing involving a connection in France, whereas conversely SNCF won't sell online tickets to stations in Germany not served by the direct trains from France. > bahn.de will sell me (through an international website to which they redirect) The problem with international-bahn.de is that what it sells aren't real through tickets, so if you miss a connection, you're depending on the goodwill of the operators involved to let you continue your journey without having to buy a (potentially very expensive) new ticket, or pay you a taxi respectively hotel accommodation if you've missed the final train of the day. The only way to get proper through tickets involving connections both on the French and the German side (e.g. I luckily live near the Paris – Strasbourg – Stuttgart service, but technically I still need a connecting regional train for a few stations) is by buying them from a ticket office, but then again due to some obscure technical issues this hasn't been possible since the end of February.

moonchrome 4y ago

Just solving urban transport with train would be a huge thing here in Croatia. Rails are so shit that if you need to commute it's faster to travel through peak rush hour with a car than ride a train. It's depressing really because good rails would really connect less developed places near the capital and offload the pressure on city.

hedora 4y ago

As tourists, we got a Eurail pass, and international travel was as seamless as you could expect (at the time, the Italian trains were slow, the French trains stank, and the British ticketing offices were full of useless queues. The German trains were a little nerve wracking because the conductors were in a blind panic because the train was 30 seconds late). Anyway, some computer figured out the transfers for us, and the itineraries were fine. The only real problem was that we had to book weeks ahead. They physically mailed the tickets the US. I can't imagine it works like that now. Either way, it's proof the patchwork of national operators can work well together.

tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago

In my experience, at least neighboring countries tend to be pretty good at selling you international tickets, and most people aren't interested in 17 hours journeys that could be replaced by a 2 hour flight. bahn.de will sell me (through an international website to which they redirect) a ticket from Frankfurt to London via Paris, an 8h40m trip costing 182 EUR one way for a date ~2 weeks out. The real issue is that I'm very unlikely to choose this option, no matter how convenient the booking, when I can get a round trip plane ticket for the same date for 156 EUR including luggage that will take 4-5 hours (including transit to/from the airport, security, boarding, waiting etc.) and gets advertised as 1h45m, 133 EUR.

NoLinkToMe 4y ago
> The real issue is that I'm very unlikely to choose this option, no matter how convenient the booking It's broader than just convenient booking, it's also integrated servicing, scheduling and infrastructure. With integrated scheduling you can get better connecting trains. > > bahn.de will sell me (through an international website to which they redirect) a ticket from Frankfurt to London via Paris, an 8h40m trip costing 182 EUR one way for a date ~2 weeks out. Frankfurt to Brussels is 3 hours, Brussels to London is 2 hours. It could be a 5 hour trip if the trains connected, very competitive to the 4-5 hours you mentioned. (And with existing technology the durations could be cut down by 30%). But if there's no connecting trains between the German-Belgian track, and the Belgian-UK track, then it will indeed take 8-9 hours. I'd definitely rather sit on a train. Relative to airplanes you typically get: - quiet - cheap/available wifi - spacious (leg room, work space) - large windows - easy access to your luggage (for work, food and recreation) - boarding experience that's less frustrating - boarding in a city centre as opposed to a peripheral airport Price remains an issue, but it's also an issue of scale and value proposition. The Italian trains I've been on were simply vastly superior experiences to whatever flight I ever took and quite cost-competitive. Take Bologna to Napels, it's a 600km route that is 3h 20m by train for just 38 euros, central station to central station. Flights certainly don't win out here. By comparison, Frankfurt to London is 640km as the bird flies. It seems once things start crossing borders and you get into disconnected international tracks, scheduling, ticketing, infrastructure, prices and connections start to suck. But that's in part a solvable issue that can be largely mitigated. If Italy can do a 600km track for 30 euros in 3.3 hours, that should be a attainable across Europe with the proper strategy and investments within 20 years. There's also the point of pricing in externalities for air flight, not doing so makes them unduly competitive. That's unlikely to last. Some countries are adding 10-20 euros to flight prices this year alone as a start, making 1-2 hour flights less interesting vs trains. Although I've read reports both ways (how flights are undertaxed, as well as how trains are already very subsidised) so I'm not sure on this point.
iggldiggl 4y ago
Some yes, others not so much. E.g. regarding France, using its regular online services DB will only sell tickets on the through trains from Germany, but nothing involving a connection in France, whereas conversely SNCF won't sell online tickets to stations in Germany not served by the direct trains from France. > bahn.de will sell me (through an international website to which they redirect) The problem with international-bahn.de is that what it sells aren't real through tickets, so if you miss a connection, you're depending on the goodwill of the operators involved to let you continue your journey without having to buy a (potentially very expensive) new ticket, or pay you a taxi respectively hotel accommodation if you've missed the final train of the day. The only way to get proper through tickets involving connections both on the French and the German side (e.g. I luckily live near the Paris – Strasbourg – Stuttgart service, but technically I still need a connecting regional train for a few stations) is by buying them from a ticket office, but then again due to some obscure technical issues this hasn't been possible since the end of February.