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Not so. The whole point of trains is that expenses are largely one-off. Building the infrastructure is expensive. Recurring costs are much lower than other mode

Not so. The whole point of trains is that expenses are largely one-off. Building the infrastructure is expensive. Recurring costs are much lower than other modes of land transport, ceteris paribus.

saddlerustle 5y ago
Land transport yes, but the operational cost of long distance trains is quite a bit higher per passenger-mile than planes
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Is it though? Or is it the fact that airlines are able to externalize their environmental costs, and are generally both under-taxed and subsidized. [edit] I'm not saying that rail isn't subsidized - it usually is, and often heavily, to be clear. It's the environmental impact that's the thrust of my claim.
  - diordiderot 5y ago
    > externalize their environmental costs It's that + Every step of the aviation industry is subsidized by state actors. oil companies are also incentivised to support as airlines are a massive consumer of karosene that would otherwise be a cheap byproduct of oil refining
trainsarebetter 5y ago
This. Rail lines don’t need much maintenance once installed. Compared to a hwy which starts to fall apart immediately. Trains are a relatively simple and robust transportation method. I wonder what the insurance costs look like between the different methods of transportation
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
Rail is much more expensive to maintain than roads on a per-kilometer basis - where are you getting your numbers from?
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  Do you have a source? I'd expect rail to be more expensive from a capital expenditure perspective (laying rail, ties, buying cars, etc) but much cheaper to operate (coefficient of friction is lower between train wheels and rails than with rubber tires and roads, optimal speeding and slowing causing less wear on tracks, less downtime as rail repairs are much simpler than road repairs, etc)
  - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
    In the UK, Network Rail spends about £150k per track kilometer per year on maintenance and renewal. Track needs constant maintenance through ballast redistribution and compaction to maintain track geometry; the rail itself needs to be ground regularly to maintain its shape; points systems need to be maintained, as well as signaling systems, earthworks and embankments, even vegetation. Maintenance costs for major roads in the UK (trunk motorways and A roads) is something about half that.
    - buttercraft 5y ago
      You need to factor in the cost of moving goods for each.
      - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
        I really don't, if my point is to rebut the statement "the whole point of trains is that expenses are largely one-off." I love trains. I used them all the time when I lived in the U.K. and in Japan. I've ridden Amtrak from New York to San Francisco, and the Orient Express. They are, however, very much not a one-and-done investment as is being suggested elsewhere in this thread. People are largely familiar with road maintenance, but most of them have no idea at all about maintenance of the railway.
    - Symbiote 5y ago
      All Network Rail railways: £4479M / 20,000 miles of track = £140000/km Strategic Road Network: £700M / 4,436 miles = £98000/km Not included: cost of pollution, injuries and deaths on the roads. Not considered: potential and actual capacity of the roads vs the railways, potential for historic underinvestment meaning higher current costs, whether these statistics mean a single track/road lane or all the tracks/lanes, usage costs for passengers and freight. A breakdown of the railways costs would be useful for a better comparison, i.e. major lines only. https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Annual-report-and-accounts-2021.pdf https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Ann... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/448276/strategic-road-network-statistics.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Not so. The whole point of trains is that expenses are largely one-off. Building the infrastructure is expensive. Recurring costs are much lower than other modes of land transport, ceteris paribus.

saddlerustle 5y ago

Land transport yes, but the operational cost of long distance trains is quite a bit higher per passenger-mile than planes

arcticbull 5y ago
Is it though? Or is it the fact that airlines are able to externalize their environmental costs, and are generally both under-taxed and subsidized. [edit] I'm not saying that rail isn't subsidized - it usually is, and often heavily, to be clear. It's the environmental impact that's the thrust of my claim.
- diordiderot 5y ago
  > externalize their environmental costs It's that + Every step of the aviation industry is subsidized by state actors. oil companies are also incentivised to support as airlines are a massive consumer of karosene that would otherwise be a cheap byproduct of oil refining

trainsarebetter 5y ago

This. Rail lines don’t need much maintenance once installed. Compared to a hwy which starts to fall apart immediately. Trains are a relatively simple and robust transportation method. I wonder what the insurance costs look like between the different methods of transportation

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago

Rail is much more expensive to maintain than roads on a per-kilometer basis - where are you getting your numbers from?

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
Do you have a source? I'd expect rail to be more expensive from a capital expenditure perspective (laying rail, ties, buying cars, etc) but much cheaper to operate (coefficient of friction is lower between train wheels and rails than with rubber tires and roads, optimal speeding and slowing causing less wear on tracks, less downtime as rail repairs are much simpler than road repairs, etc)
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  In the UK, Network Rail spends about £150k per track kilometer per year on maintenance and renewal. Track needs constant maintenance through ballast redistribution and compaction to maintain track geometry; the rail itself needs to be ground regularly to maintain its shape; points systems need to be maintained, as well as signaling systems, earthworks and embankments, even vegetation. Maintenance costs for major roads in the UK (trunk motorways and A roads) is something about half that.
  - buttercraft 5y ago
    You need to factor in the cost of moving goods for each.
    - NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
      I really don't, if my point is to rebut the statement "the whole point of trains is that expenses are largely one-off." I love trains. I used them all the time when I lived in the U.K. and in Japan. I've ridden Amtrak from New York to San Francisco, and the Orient Express. They are, however, very much not a one-and-done investment as is being suggested elsewhere in this thread. People are largely familiar with road maintenance, but most of them have no idea at all about maintenance of the railway.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    All Network Rail railways: £4479M / 20,000 miles of track = £140000/km Strategic Road Network: £700M / 4,436 miles = £98000/km Not included: cost of pollution, injuries and deaths on the roads. Not considered: potential and actual capacity of the roads vs the railways, potential for historic underinvestment meaning higher current costs, whether these statistics mean a single track/road lane or all the tracks/lanes, usage costs for passengers and freight. A breakdown of the railways costs would be useful for a better comparison, i.e. major lines only. https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Annual-report-and-accounts-2021.pdf https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Ann... https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/448276/strategic-road-network-statistics.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...