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It's different in Poland. Here, everyone always complains about the rail and it was shit like you wouldn't believe only like 15 years ago. I've been using train

It's different in Poland. Here, everyone always complains about the rail and it was shit like you wouldn't believe only like 15 years ago. I've been using trains only sporadically but the improvements are absolutely immense, I couldn't believe my eyes. Not perfect of course but holy shit did it improve, especially regional rails Of course we had to improve from much lower standards than Germany, I guess, so I have no idea if our expectations of good are the same but nevertheless

scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
I use trains here in Poland and although there have been big improvements, a lot of them are only a facade. Long distance PKP trains are still late everyday. The regional trains in my city tend to be over-packed, and from a technical pov they’re more like larger diesel buses than trains. However, in response to the earlier comment and this one as well, I would have to say that investment doesn’t always mean immediate visible effects. The biggest investment to make in rail is in the infrastructure. You don’t feel as a passenger which parts of the track are old and which are new, and they are pretty expensive to build and maintain. I also would wonder how much freight rail is in that investment, because that we don’t see or feel at all.
- emteycz 4y ago
  Even a diesel bus on rails is much more efficient than a diesel bus on roads. It's also much easier to electrify than a fleet of buses, an much more ecological when you do (because no significant battery). Thus, anything on rails is a win.
  - scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
    Agreed - especially in the context of how unbelievably clumsy the US is at doing trains. Here in western Poland however it was a bit easier - lots of tracks remained since 19th century. And with these diesel buses popping up, an opportunity presented itself to go relatively low investment and lots of political bang. Those trains are usually way too packed in my personal experience. Similarly, Pendolino high speed rail was developed and implemented to huge fanfare. Only the tickets ended up being so expensive that basically only the upper-upper-middle class wants to take them. Why take the high-speed train at double the price to get you there twice as fast, when all you need is to get there?
    - luciusdomitius 4y ago
      Well. In Germany the middle class flies or drives, the lower class takes the bus and the upper-upper-middle class drives teslas or takes ICEs
      - lillecarl 4y ago
        So who takes the train?
        komadori 4y ago
        I think: ICE = Inter-City Express (train)
        mjhatrick 4y ago
        (As opposed to Internal Combustion Engines, which may have caused the confusion)
        lillecarl 4y ago
        Indeed it was what confused me. I'm Sweden our vocabulary is: Train, Commuter train, Subway, Tram Then again, our fastest train does 200 kph, so we only have "old shitcans". I reckon this is because we're 12% the population of Germany on 126% the area. It's not worth the investment with high speed rail. Then again these numbers are a bit exaggerated, you could essentially cut Sweden in into 2 pieces just above Stockholm and you'd end up with one relatively densely populated area and something that would more or less resemble Alaska in population. What's great about the north is it is our own little Alaska in the sense that we have a metric shitload of iron ore so pure you can put it straight to the furnace, keeps us southerners afloat for sure.
    - vondur 4y ago
      American rail is hyper optimized for freight, not people.
- axiomsEnd 4y ago
  Poland made a huge step back when it comes to trains after 1990 - there is a good book by Karol Trammer "Ostre cięcie" about disastrous cuts. On the other hand - Pendolino is a real step forward, and at least Cracow is trying to improve general quality and invest in intra-city trains, which maybe not the fastest, but still much better than buses or trams.
  - scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
    I highly disagree on Pendolino and I am quite angry about it. It has been around for what, >5 years now? I have still yet to take it because it is so expensive. It’s basically the Concorde of Polish trains - it cost a fortune to build and only rich people take it because it speeds up travel time by ~30%. Meanwhile, standard speed trains, which are still capable of covering the same distances in reasonable time, are late, are underinvested and are overcrowded. What we would need is an affordable high volume train network, not trains that cost the same as planes and look cool. That’s my rant on that subject. On the other hand I do think the one great thing we got out of the previous system is a well developed train network. Even with all of it’s faults and issues, trains remain a great way to get around Poland. And that is something to be grateful for. I’ll check out that book, thanks!
    - jwr 4y ago
      > the one great thing we got out of the previous system is a well developed train network Amusingly enough, most of this is something we got from the systems before that, or simply other countries :-) Just look at this map: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_kolejowy_w_Polsce#/media/Plik:PKP1952-53.jpg https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_kolejowy_w_Polsce#/m... See how the rail network is much denser in the western regions? Now compare it to this map: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziemie_Rzeczypospolitej_pod_zaborami#/media/Plik:Zabory_na_gminach.png https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziemie_Rzeczypospolitej_pod_za...
      - ithinkso 4y ago
        Poland A and B, you can see it on a lot of maps, not only rails
- hilbert42 4y ago
  I can't help but feel much of this argument is relative. From my experience (I'm no longer a European resident) almost all of the European rail network that I've traveled on (and that's quite a lot) beats much of the infrastructure in Anglophone countries—and I'm referring to both track and rolling-stock). (...Perhaps my view has been formed by the fact that I've come from a low base in Anglophone countries, so everything seems much better in Europe.) ___ Edit: I must be fair, there was one European route that I traveled on that was truly substandard and that was the single-track Kaiser Franz Josephs Bahn (Emperor Franz Joseph Railway) from Vienna (Wien Nordbahnhof) to Prague via Gmünd — not the good two track route that goes via Břeclav and Brno (which I've also traveled on). The railway track of the Kaiser Franz Josephs Bahn was in dire—most desperate—need of maintenance when I traveled on it and that was a few years before the Iron Curtain fell and Czechoslovakia was still communist. There's no doubt that's the worst track I've ever traveled on (it's one of those experience one never forgets). The train traveled so slowly that we passengers thought we could get out and walk faster, moreover the carriages rocked wildly from side to side and we had a constant feeling that the train was going to derail at any moment (had it gone any faster then I reckon it certainly would have derailed). I have no idea whether that track is still in such poor condition today or not (at the time I was on the understanding that the track had deliberately not been maintained since the War because of Iron Curtain politics). Nevertheless, it was by far the exception in my experience.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    As a UK resident, I can't help but wonder which group you're including the UK in. We're both a European and an anglophone country!
    - hilbert42 4y ago
      Sorry, Brexit is clouding my judgment. I should have said Continental Europe! ;-) That said, to be fair I found the UK track maintenance pretty good although trains weren't as punctual as they were in most of Europe. Likewise, the carriages/comfort was somewhat primitive compared to most of what I've experienced on the Continent. I have to say it's quite some years since I've traveled on British Rail and I understand things have improved considerably in recent years (one only has to watch Portillo speaking to camera from a UK train carriage to realize that). My worst (and repeated) experience on UK Rail was the horrible Gatwick Express which was often notoriously late (especially the time when it broke down midway to the airport and I missed a flight to New York and lost a whole day in the process). Perhaps my most memorable experience—it's what always first comes to mind whenever I think of rail travel in the UK—it's the horrible apology for a cheese sandwich that I was offered (and at an enormous ripoff price) on an 'overnighter' from London to Edinburgh (I've witnesses, they suffered the same fate). I can't say I've ever eaten a worse one. Presumably, the latest food offerings have also improved somewhat since then.
mszcz 4y ago
Yeah, around that time I was still in college and used trains a lot. I remember we had a running joke about everything inside the trains we traveled in had some sort of sticky, yucky film. When you grabbed something and then let go you could kind of feel the train clinging to you. The heating in the winter was always either broken or turned to 11. My friend once, by accident, melted a big chunk of his shoe on the radiator under his seat. I've recently traveled by that same line. The train has changed a bit, the film seems to be gone but the ~100km trip takes 5 minutes longer than it used to, averaging <50km/h... So still ways to go. edit: spelling
- cromka 4y ago
  > My friend once, by accident, melted a big chunk of his shoe on the radiator under his seat. This happened to me while on a train to Warsaw 20 years ago, as a high-school student. Ironically I travelled to the Parliament where Buzek, the at-the-time PM, came back from Athens having signed the EU Treaty of Accession to give an impromptu press release. Crazy how much progres we had seen since, and how many set backs.
  - mszcz 4y ago
    Yeah. On the flip side I've traveled to Warsaw some time ago on the Pendolino (?) train. I splurged on a first class ticket (~$35) and it was real nice. No "film", separate seats, great service, clean, real fast. Of course, the bubble burst when we approached Warsaw - the train slowed to a crawl just as we were entering the city and I was late like an hour :P Baby steps I guess ;) edit: Damn spelling again
tester756 4y ago
Here (southern Poland) I do believe that trains are really good in compare to what we had like decade or so ago Quiet, looking modern, clean, reasonable seats and their "placement" strategy For comparison: monthly ticket price is like 10% of minimal wage (or 50% of that for students) for distance around 100km/day
Tade0 4y ago
The fleet is in much better shape(especially refurbished, compartmentless carriages - these are great at limiting antisocial behaviour), but the infrastructure is disappearing in favour of car traffic. Some cities, like Łomża, lost access to rail entirely (although IIRC it's going to be restored after an over six year hiatus). I still drive between Wrocław and Warsaw, even though I would rather travel by train, but there's no dedicated track between these cities, so it has to take a long detour, ultimately making the trip take 6h vs 4h point-to-point by train and car respectively.

scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago

I use trains here in Poland and although there have been big improvements, a lot of them are only a facade. Long distance PKP trains are still late everyday. The regional trains in my city tend to be over-packed, and from a technical pov they’re more like larger diesel buses than trains. However, in response to the earlier comment and this one as well, I would have to say that investment doesn’t always mean immediate visible effects. The biggest investment to make in rail is in the infrastructure. You don’t feel as a passenger which parts of the track are old and which are new, and they are pretty expensive to build and maintain. I also would wonder how much freight rail is in that investment, because that we don’t see or feel at all.

emteycz 4y ago
Even a diesel bus on rails is much more efficient than a diesel bus on roads. It's also much easier to electrify than a fleet of buses, an much more ecological when you do (because no significant battery). Thus, anything on rails is a win.
- scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
  Agreed - especially in the context of how unbelievably clumsy the US is at doing trains. Here in western Poland however it was a bit easier - lots of tracks remained since 19th century. And with these diesel buses popping up, an opportunity presented itself to go relatively low investment and lots of political bang. Those trains are usually way too packed in my personal experience. Similarly, Pendolino high speed rail was developed and implemented to huge fanfare. Only the tickets ended up being so expensive that basically only the upper-upper-middle class wants to take them. Why take the high-speed train at double the price to get you there twice as fast, when all you need is to get there?
  - luciusdomitius 4y ago
    Well. In Germany the middle class flies or drives, the lower class takes the bus and the upper-upper-middle class drives teslas or takes ICEs
    - lillecarl 4y ago
      So who takes the train?
      - komadori 4y ago
        I think: ICE = Inter-City Express (train)
        mjhatrick 4y ago
        (As opposed to Internal Combustion Engines, which may have caused the confusion)
        lillecarl 4y ago
        Indeed it was what confused me. I'm Sweden our vocabulary is: Train, Commuter train, Subway, Tram Then again, our fastest train does 200 kph, so we only have "old shitcans". I reckon this is because we're 12% the population of Germany on 126% the area. It's not worth the investment with high speed rail. Then again these numbers are a bit exaggerated, you could essentially cut Sweden in into 2 pieces just above Stockholm and you'd end up with one relatively densely populated area and something that would more or less resemble Alaska in population. What's great about the north is it is our own little Alaska in the sense that we have a metric shitload of iron ore so pure you can put it straight to the furnace, keeps us southerners afloat for sure.
  - vondur 4y ago
    American rail is hyper optimized for freight, not people.
axiomsEnd 4y ago
Poland made a huge step back when it comes to trains after 1990 - there is a good book by Karol Trammer "Ostre cięcie" about disastrous cuts. On the other hand - Pendolino is a real step forward, and at least Cracow is trying to improve general quality and invest in intra-city trains, which maybe not the fastest, but still much better than buses or trams.
- scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
  I highly disagree on Pendolino and I am quite angry about it. It has been around for what, >5 years now? I have still yet to take it because it is so expensive. It’s basically the Concorde of Polish trains - it cost a fortune to build and only rich people take it because it speeds up travel time by ~30%. Meanwhile, standard speed trains, which are still capable of covering the same distances in reasonable time, are late, are underinvested and are overcrowded. What we would need is an affordable high volume train network, not trains that cost the same as planes and look cool. That’s my rant on that subject. On the other hand I do think the one great thing we got out of the previous system is a well developed train network. Even with all of it’s faults and issues, trains remain a great way to get around Poland. And that is something to be grateful for. I’ll check out that book, thanks!
  - jwr 4y ago
    > the one great thing we got out of the previous system is a well developed train network Amusingly enough, most of this is something we got from the systems before that, or simply other countries :-) Just look at this map: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_kolejowy_w_Polsce#/media/Plik:PKP1952-53.jpg https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_kolejowy_w_Polsce#/m... See how the rail network is much denser in the western regions? Now compare it to this map: https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziemie_Rzeczypospolitej_pod_zaborami#/media/Plik:Zabory_na_gminach.png https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziemie_Rzeczypospolitej_pod_za...
    - ithinkso 4y ago
      Poland A and B, you can see it on a lot of maps, not only rails
hilbert42 4y ago
I can't help but feel much of this argument is relative. From my experience (I'm no longer a European resident) almost all of the European rail network that I've traveled on (and that's quite a lot) beats much of the infrastructure in Anglophone countries—and I'm referring to both track and rolling-stock). (...Perhaps my view has been formed by the fact that I've come from a low base in Anglophone countries, so everything seems much better in Europe.) ___ Edit: I must be fair, there was one European route that I traveled on that was truly substandard and that was the single-track Kaiser Franz Josephs Bahn (Emperor Franz Joseph Railway) from Vienna (Wien Nordbahnhof) to Prague via Gmünd — not the good two track route that goes via Břeclav and Brno (which I've also traveled on). The railway track of the Kaiser Franz Josephs Bahn was in dire—most desperate—need of maintenance when I traveled on it and that was a few years before the Iron Curtain fell and Czechoslovakia was still communist. There's no doubt that's the worst track I've ever traveled on (it's one of those experience one never forgets). The train traveled so slowly that we passengers thought we could get out and walk faster, moreover the carriages rocked wildly from side to side and we had a constant feeling that the train was going to derail at any moment (had it gone any faster then I reckon it certainly would have derailed). I have no idea whether that track is still in such poor condition today or not (at the time I was on the understanding that the track had deliberately not been maintained since the War because of Iron Curtain politics). Nevertheless, it was by far the exception in my experience.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  As a UK resident, I can't help but wonder which group you're including the UK in. We're both a European and an anglophone country!
  - hilbert42 4y ago
    Sorry, Brexit is clouding my judgment. I should have said Continental Europe! ;-) That said, to be fair I found the UK track maintenance pretty good although trains weren't as punctual as they were in most of Europe. Likewise, the carriages/comfort was somewhat primitive compared to most of what I've experienced on the Continent. I have to say it's quite some years since I've traveled on British Rail and I understand things have improved considerably in recent years (one only has to watch Portillo speaking to camera from a UK train carriage to realize that). My worst (and repeated) experience on UK Rail was the horrible Gatwick Express which was often notoriously late (especially the time when it broke down midway to the airport and I missed a flight to New York and lost a whole day in the process). Perhaps my most memorable experience—it's what always first comes to mind whenever I think of rail travel in the UK—it's the horrible apology for a cheese sandwich that I was offered (and at an enormous ripoff price) on an 'overnighter' from London to Edinburgh (I've witnesses, they suffered the same fate). I can't say I've ever eaten a worse one. Presumably, the latest food offerings have also improved somewhat since then.

mszcz 4y ago

Yeah, around that time I was still in college and used trains a lot. I remember we had a running joke about everything inside the trains we traveled in had some sort of sticky, yucky film. When you grabbed something and then let go you could kind of feel the train clinging to you. The heating in the winter was always either broken or turned to 11. My friend once, by accident, melted a big chunk of his shoe on the radiator under his seat. I've recently traveled by that same line. The train has changed a bit, the film seems to be gone but the ~100km trip takes 5 minutes longer than it used to, averaging <50km/h... So still ways to go. edit: spelling

cromka 4y ago
> My friend once, by accident, melted a big chunk of his shoe on the radiator under his seat. This happened to me while on a train to Warsaw 20 years ago, as a high-school student. Ironically I travelled to the Parliament where Buzek, the at-the-time PM, came back from Athens having signed the EU Treaty of Accession to give an impromptu press release. Crazy how much progres we had seen since, and how many set backs.
- mszcz 4y ago
  Yeah. On the flip side I've traveled to Warsaw some time ago on the Pendolino (?) train. I splurged on a first class ticket (~$35) and it was real nice. No "film", separate seats, great service, clean, real fast. Of course, the bubble burst when we approached Warsaw - the train slowed to a crawl just as we were entering the city and I was late like an hour :P Baby steps I guess ;) edit: Damn spelling again

tester756 4y ago

Here (southern Poland) I do believe that trains are really good in compare to what we had like decade or so ago Quiet, looking modern, clean, reasonable seats and their "placement" strategy For comparison: monthly ticket price is like 10% of minimal wage (or 50% of that for students) for distance around 100km/day

Tade0 4y ago

The fleet is in much better shape(especially refurbished, compartmentless carriages - these are great at limiting antisocial behaviour), but the infrastructure is disappearing in favour of car traffic. Some cities, like Łomża, lost access to rail entirely (although IIRC it's going to be restored after an over six year hiatus). I still drive between Wrocław and Warsaw, even though I would rather travel by train, but there's no dedicated track between these cities, so it has to take a long detour, ultimately making the trip take 6h vs 4h point-to-point by train and car respectively.