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From the petition: AI-powered bots shut down legitimate seller accounts seemingly at random, while Etsy looks the other way on resellers who undercut authentic

From the petition: AI-powered bots shut down legitimate seller accounts seemingly at random, while Etsy looks the other way on resellers who undercut authentic makers by peddling sweatshop-produced junk in clear violation of the spirit of the Etsy community. AI lockouts are a huge problem on Amazon, too, not to mention many of the sites and services used by HNers. I've said it before and I will say it again: How many more pleas like this will we see on HN? Or, hear from friends, colleagues, and relatives who have been locked out or denied access to an important service, either through no fault of their own or by an innocent action? No warning. No explanation other than "suspicious activity" or "violation of [vaguely worded] policy." No human to call who can help troubleshoot, other than a tech-savvy friend or relative. No recourse. There needs to be a technology bill of rights, not just for people dealing with Google, Amazon, Apple, and Facebook, but also the myriad other technology operators which can disrupt our lives in an instant with some poorly programmed process or unanticipated edge case.

noneeeed 5y ago
Seriously. I got shot down on the last Google related thread about this issue because "what about the scammers". I get it, you need a process for stopping the scammers/psammers, but any system you create will make mistakes and so it must have a genuine system of appeal and recourse. At some point on of these companies is going to hit someone with enough power to force them to do a better job.
- m_coder 5y ago
  >>At some point on of these companies is going to hit someone with enough power to force them to do a better job. And then they fix that one situation and go on about their normal business. At least that is what it seems to me. I would wish for something more long term to happen but I am becoming less hopeful.
- banannaise 5y ago
  The scammers seem to do just fine despite all these systems, yet legitimate sellers can get completely hosed by them. Hm.
raylad 5y ago
Etsy seems generally to have some tech issues. I bought a couple of things on their site a while ago, but have never been a seller. Somehow I keep getting emails intended for sellers in France and other places, trying to coordinate shipments or orders, or complaining about issues with orders. This has been going on for at least 4 years and I've reported it to Etsy multiple times with no follow-up at all on their side.
dotnet00 5y ago
Those poor companies can't be expected to be responsible with their power, they only make several billion dollars off their users every year and putting conditions on their ability to remove content they find suspicious is comparable to me dealing with a thief in my house.
shmatt 5y ago
Claiming (in whatever "official" existence this website is for the sellers) anything made in China, or any other non-western country, is "sweatshop-produced junk" is definitely not the way to fix this Manufacturing has moved to these places in some cases because many customers just can't tell the difference or couldn't care less about the difference Are the people organized under that website all wearing leather shoes hand sewn in Maine cottages? Or are they wearing more sweatshop produced junk
- nerdponx 5y ago
  Rhetoric aside, the point is that mass-manufactured products do not belong on Etsy.
- pbourke 5y ago
  > Manufacturing has moved to these places in some cases because many customers just can't tell the difference or couldn't care less about the difference Your argument does not hold in this case, because Etsy was established and sustained as a marketplace for handmade goods. This is true also for customers, who visited Etsy to support independent artists and artisans and to purchase unique and limited items. Many of the sellers of cheap knock-offs are engaged in blatant theft of IP and misrepresentation as independent artists. > Are the people organized under that website all wearing leather shoes hand sewn in Maine cottages? Or are they wearing more sweatshop produced junk I don’t see what this has to do with anything. But, yes, many sellers try hard to support other artisans. Etsy is but one part of a culture and economy of handmade goods that includes in-person shows and other off-Etsy venues.
  - mitchdoogle 5y ago
    Hand-made is kind of a meaningless term these days because it has been abused over and over again. I've seen things that were clearly designed with the help of a computer graphics program, and then cut with a laser cutter described as "handmade". It is supposed to mean something that is made without the use of any machines, yet Etsy sellers seem to think it means "something produced in small batches". As the previous poster said though, why would I care about the distinction? Are handmade goods supposed to be better? Seems like a ludicrous proposition. Machines are more precise and faster, and so they make things cheaper. The quality depends on the processes used, and materials, not on whether machines are used.

noneeeed 5y ago

Seriously. I got shot down on the last Google related thread about this issue because "what about the scammers". I get it, you need a process for stopping the scammers/psammers, but any system you create will make mistakes and so it must have a genuine system of appeal and recourse. At some point on of these companies is going to hit someone with enough power to force them to do a better job.

m_coder 5y ago
>>At some point on of these companies is going to hit someone with enough power to force them to do a better job. And then they fix that one situation and go on about their normal business. At least that is what it seems to me. I would wish for something more long term to happen but I am becoming less hopeful.
banannaise 5y ago
The scammers seem to do just fine despite all these systems, yet legitimate sellers can get completely hosed by them. Hm.

raylad 5y ago

Etsy seems generally to have some tech issues. I bought a couple of things on their site a while ago, but have never been a seller. Somehow I keep getting emails intended for sellers in France and other places, trying to coordinate shipments or orders, or complaining about issues with orders. This has been going on for at least 4 years and I've reported it to Etsy multiple times with no follow-up at all on their side.

dotnet00 5y ago

Those poor companies can't be expected to be responsible with their power, they only make several billion dollars off their users every year and putting conditions on their ability to remove content they find suspicious is comparable to me dealing with a thief in my house.

shmatt 5y ago

Claiming (in whatever "official" existence this website is for the sellers) anything made in China, or any other non-western country, is "sweatshop-produced junk" is definitely not the way to fix this Manufacturing has moved to these places in some cases because many customers just can't tell the difference or couldn't care less about the difference Are the people organized under that website all wearing leather shoes hand sewn in Maine cottages? Or are they wearing more sweatshop produced junk

nerdponx 5y ago
Rhetoric aside, the point is that mass-manufactured products do not belong on Etsy.
pbourke 5y ago
> Manufacturing has moved to these places in some cases because many customers just can't tell the difference or couldn't care less about the difference Your argument does not hold in this case, because Etsy was established and sustained as a marketplace for handmade goods. This is true also for customers, who visited Etsy to support independent artists and artisans and to purchase unique and limited items. Many of the sellers of cheap knock-offs are engaged in blatant theft of IP and misrepresentation as independent artists. > Are the people organized under that website all wearing leather shoes hand sewn in Maine cottages? Or are they wearing more sweatshop produced junk I don’t see what this has to do with anything. But, yes, many sellers try hard to support other artisans. Etsy is but one part of a culture and economy of handmade goods that includes in-person shows and other off-Etsy venues.
- mitchdoogle 5y ago
  Hand-made is kind of a meaningless term these days because it has been abused over and over again. I've seen things that were clearly designed with the help of a computer graphics program, and then cut with a laser cutter described as "handmade". It is supposed to mean something that is made without the use of any machines, yet Etsy sellers seem to think it means "something produced in small batches". As the previous poster said though, why would I care about the distinction? Are handmade goods supposed to be better? Seems like a ludicrous proposition. Machines are more precise and faster, and so they make things cheaper. The quality depends on the processes used, and materials, not on whether machines are used.