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Russian army has been revealed to be a joke, so I don't see the why all the rush to join NATO because of their fiasco in eastern Ukraine. We bordered USSR and t

by oxff 5y ago

Russian army has been revealed to be a joke, so I don't see the why all the rush to join NATO because of their fiasco in eastern Ukraine. We bordered USSR and they had a military that went toe-to-toe with the Nazi Germany; USSR military was a much greater threat and yet we brought them to stalemate and had enough deterrent to stop them from conquering us later.

timeon 5y ago
It may be "fiasco in eastern Ukraine" but I guess that residents of Mariupol or Bucha would prefer if they were in NATO.
bee_rider 5y ago
Isn't Ukraine a fairly large country, compared to the European average? For example they appear to have around 9x as many people as Finland. Of course, Finland has a more high tech economy, maybe a much better army. But I don't think getting stalled by the 8'th largest European country, particularly given the outpouring of high tech western weapons, makes Russia non-scary. (8'th largest by population, and that's with the no-EU Turkey and Russia included). If I were Finland I'd join NATO ASAP, while Russia is distracted and before a bunch of mysterious "border disputes" arise.
pdpi 5y ago
The Russian fiasco in Ukraine is that they haven’t won, and it seems less and less likely that they will ever win. They’re still doing plenty of damage in the meantime. Damage that could perhaps have been avoided if Ukraine had direct military backing from NATO. All things considered, I’d rather not get into a fight at all than get into fight I win.
glogla 5y ago
I don't know if you refer to Winter War or Continuation war, but both ended by Finland surrendering territory to the Soviets. After the first one, Finland allied with the Nazis, after the second one it lost freedom and sovereignty through Finlandization. I'm not sure how both can be seen as anything but Soviet victories?
fsloth 5y ago
I think your sense of history is quite misguided. "we brought them to stalemate" In the continuation war of Finland and Germany against Soviet Union, German troops formed a large part of the front. "had enough deterrent to stop them from conquering us later." Without allied pressure Soviet Union could have steamrolled over Finland after Germany receded. Instead Finland got the bitter pill of being in Kremlin leash for decades - but still much preferable to death or rule by communist junta.

by oxff 5y ago

timeon 5y ago

It may be "fiasco in eastern Ukraine" but I guess that residents of Mariupol or Bucha would prefer if they were in NATO.

bee_rider 5y ago

Isn't Ukraine a fairly large country, compared to the European average? For example they appear to have around 9x as many people as Finland. Of course, Finland has a more high tech economy, maybe a much better army. But I don't think getting stalled by the 8'th largest European country, particularly given the outpouring of high tech western weapons, makes Russia non-scary. (8'th largest by population, and that's with the no-EU Turkey and Russia included). If I were Finland I'd join NATO ASAP, while Russia is distracted and before a bunch of mysterious "border disputes" arise.

pdpi 5y ago

The Russian fiasco in Ukraine is that they haven’t won, and it seems less and less likely that they will ever win. They’re still doing plenty of damage in the meantime. Damage that could perhaps have been avoided if Ukraine had direct military backing from NATO. All things considered, I’d rather not get into a fight at all than get into fight I win.

glogla 5y ago

I don't know if you refer to Winter War or Continuation war, but both ended by Finland surrendering territory to the Soviets. After the first one, Finland allied with the Nazis, after the second one it lost freedom and sovereignty through Finlandization. I'm not sure how both can be seen as anything but Soviet victories?

fsloth 5y ago

I think your sense of history is quite misguided. "we brought them to stalemate" In the continuation war of Finland and Germany against Soviet Union, German troops formed a large part of the front. "had enough deterrent to stop them from conquering us later." Without allied pressure Soviet Union could have steamrolled over Finland after Germany receded. Instead Finland got the bitter pill of being in Kremlin leash for decades - but still much preferable to death or rule by communist junta.