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The invasion of Ukraine changed everything. Also: If Russia tries anything with the baltic states, it will almost inevitably attack parts of Sweden and Finland

The invasion of Ukraine changed everything. Also: If Russia tries anything with the baltic states, it will almost inevitably attack parts of Sweden and Finland just to safeguard its flanks. There is no upside to appeasing Putin anymore.

jeltz 5y ago
Sweden was never really been very interested in appeasing Putin. Our opposition to NATO has much more to do with Erdogan plus various US led wars (recently Iraq and Afghanistan but before that a bunch of other wars) than with fear of provoking Russia. The left wing parties in Sweden do not like the idea of a military alliance with Turkey or the US, but this invasion might make it the least bad option to them.
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  Finland has a long history of trying not to anger Russia. Sweden to some degree also. On the long haul, friends of the US have a much better time than "friends" of Russia, especially those with a border to their "empire". I don't think a lot of people like being allied to Erdogan. Turkey itself is not so much the problem, it is actually a valuable member due to location and contribution. As I said, non-membership makes involvement of Finland and Sweden in any future wars between Russia and its neighbors more likely, not less likely.
itsoktocry 5y ago
>There is no upside to appeasing Putin anymore. The upside is to avoid nuclear war. Believe it or not, prior to the Russian invasion, the Ukrainian peoples wanted peace, too. Joining NATO wouldn't have done so. The idea that disputes between countries all over the map should lead to NATO involvement is dangerous. It's astounding how so many people don't seem to understand this. Of course, if you say, "How would we react?" it's "whataboutism".
- bayesian_horse 5y ago
  Ukraine actually applied to NATO in 2006. You label the invasion of Ukraine a "dispute"? It's a war of unilateral aggression involving war crimes and genocide. The point of NATO membership of Finland and Sweden is to avoid military conflicts. Putin proved to the world that he does not abide by any norm or treaty, so not joining NATO will give those countries no security from his forces should he decide attacking them is in his best interests.

jeltz 5y ago

Sweden was never really been very interested in appeasing Putin. Our opposition to NATO has much more to do with Erdogan plus various US led wars (recently Iraq and Afghanistan but before that a bunch of other wars) than with fear of provoking Russia. The left wing parties in Sweden do not like the idea of a military alliance with Turkey or the US, but this invasion might make it the least bad option to them.

bayesian_horse 5y ago
Finland has a long history of trying not to anger Russia. Sweden to some degree also. On the long haul, friends of the US have a much better time than "friends" of Russia, especially those with a border to their "empire". I don't think a lot of people like being allied to Erdogan. Turkey itself is not so much the problem, it is actually a valuable member due to location and contribution. As I said, non-membership makes involvement of Finland and Sweden in any future wars between Russia and its neighbors more likely, not less likely.

itsoktocry 5y ago

>There is no upside to appeasing Putin anymore. The upside is to avoid nuclear war. Believe it or not, prior to the Russian invasion, the Ukrainian peoples wanted peace, too. Joining NATO wouldn't have done so. The idea that disputes between countries all over the map should lead to NATO involvement is dangerous. It's astounding how so many people don't seem to understand this. Of course, if you say, "How would we react?" it's "whataboutism".

bayesian_horse 5y ago
Ukraine actually applied to NATO in 2006. You label the invasion of Ukraine a "dispute"? It's a war of unilateral aggression involving war crimes and genocide. The point of NATO membership of Finland and Sweden is to avoid military conflicts. Putin proved to the world that he does not abide by any norm or treaty, so not joining NATO will give those countries no security from his forces should he decide attacking them is in his best interests.