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Neither aircraft nor drug development norms look anything like the norms of software development. I actually find a substantial difference in my trust level bet

Neither aircraft nor drug development norms look anything like the norms of software development. I actually find a substantial difference in my trust level between a traditional car company that's building self-driving capabilities (e.g. Mercedes) than a company that fashions itself as a software company that happens to build cars (e.g. Tesla) for exactly the reason of the norms and behaviors that each org would encourage.

woah 5y ago
Didn't aircraft development norms lead to several planes plunging out of the sky with zero mechanical issues, due to software failure?
- gouggoug 5y ago
  It's actually _failure to follow aircraft development norms_ that lead to the crash of multiple 737-Max
dogman144 5y ago
Generally agree but also knew people who worked on Boeing QA/SWE and the internal picture sounds dicy. I'm a bit disconcerted flying after learning about it.
- skylanh 5y ago
  Boeing's issues were written on the wall about 2 decades ago when it moved it's hierarchy from an engineer-centric one to a Chicago accountant-centric one. That alone wouldn't have been an issue, but they had an immediate brain drain as half their HQ staff didn't follow the relocation. Imagine a thousand employees, half your HQ staff, that leave. There are several possible reasons: - they're older -> more corporate knowledge and knew the "magic recipes" - skill based mobility -> they're so good they can go anywhere, and Chicago isn't Seattle - etc https://hbr.org/2001/10/inside-boeings-big-move https://hbr.org/2001/10/inside-boeings-big-move This was widely thought on ... what was I browsing back then? Reddit? as a fore-warner of bad stuff to come The fore-warning came to fruition when the issues at various Boeing plants started developing over the next ten years (insider videos talking with an employee about being on drugs during crucial assembly work and shift mates being similarly high, "get it through your station" attitudes) and the Dreamliner issues that were hand-waved away (no training, 1-hour tablet self directed training, certification delays, and eventually crashes).
  - HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    > what was I browsing back then? Reddit? I remember it being discussed on SlashDot back then.
- foolinaround 5y ago
  generally, you dont want to know how the sausage is being made... its pretty much all industries, some worse than the others.

woah 5y ago

Didn't aircraft development norms lead to several planes plunging out of the sky with zero mechanical issues, due to software failure?

gouggoug 5y ago
It's actually _failure to follow aircraft development norms_ that lead to the crash of multiple 737-Max

dogman144 5y ago

Generally agree but also knew people who worked on Boeing QA/SWE and the internal picture sounds dicy. I'm a bit disconcerted flying after learning about it.

skylanh 5y ago
Boeing's issues were written on the wall about 2 decades ago when it moved it's hierarchy from an engineer-centric one to a Chicago accountant-centric one. That alone wouldn't have been an issue, but they had an immediate brain drain as half their HQ staff didn't follow the relocation. Imagine a thousand employees, half your HQ staff, that leave. There are several possible reasons: - they're older -> more corporate knowledge and knew the "magic recipes" - skill based mobility -> they're so good they can go anywhere, and Chicago isn't Seattle - etc https://hbr.org/2001/10/inside-boeings-big-move https://hbr.org/2001/10/inside-boeings-big-move This was widely thought on ... what was I browsing back then? Reddit? as a fore-warner of bad stuff to come The fore-warning came to fruition when the issues at various Boeing plants started developing over the next ten years (insider videos talking with an employee about being on drugs during crucial assembly work and shift mates being similarly high, "get it through your station" attitudes) and the Dreamliner issues that were hand-waved away (no training, 1-hour tablet self directed training, certification delays, and eventually crashes).
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
  > what was I browsing back then? Reddit? I remember it being discussed on SlashDot back then.
foolinaround 5y ago
generally, you dont want to know how the sausage is being made... its pretty much all industries, some worse than the others.