11 ms·

If only Ukraine had tried diplomacy!

lillecarl 5y ago
Did they though? They knew Putin wouldn't allow a NATO membership to come through. I'm more worried that Russia is gonna fuck with us (Sweden) if we join NATO. This is going to be a deciding factor for my vote, I do not want to be a part of big brother USAs extended military arm, I want us to stay true to what we've been doing for the last 200 years, staying neutral and peaceful. If we chose a side we're in the same boat as everyone else.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  Is neutrality the best way to stay peaceful?
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    If the option is joining one of the opposing gangs I'd say yes, yes it is
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      Ukraine was neutral, now begging to be let into the EU, and in practice entirely dependent on weapons and training from NATO for national survival. Why do you think Russia picks on Ukraine (neutral) and not Lithuania (allied)?
      - lillecarl 5y ago
        My assumption would be because Ukraine "was last".
- Hamuko 5y ago
  >I want us to stay true to what we've been doing for the last 200 years, staying neutral and peaceful. If we chose a side we're in the same boat as everyone else. Good to know we can count on you Sweden if we get invaded by Russia. Glad that you also stayed neutral and peaceful during WWII. Not really sure how you managed that, seems really hard. - Finland
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    There's quite an obvious difference between helping your neighboring country (like we did in WW2) and joining a war pact that infuriates the enemy even further. - Sweden, the non-aggressive Scandinavian country...
    - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
      Helping your neighbouring country? You're referring to Nazi Germany, right?
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710541/Russia-moves-military-equipment-Finnish-border-warning-Finland-not-join-NATO.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710541/Russia-mov... I guess the option of joining one of the gangs has it's merits, like having military moved towards your border. Yes the article says the video is unconfirmed so I guess it's just speculation. But when the war breaks out in our countries I won't have any pleasure in the "I told you so".
- KerrAvon 5y ago
  If you don’t choose a side you may find Russia choosing one for you. That’s the whole point of NATO from the perspective of the member states.
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    So the last 200 years of peace doesn't account for any kind of stability? I highly doubt Russia would start messing with us out of nowhere. If we start talking about joining NATO though, then he's got the same leverage on us as Ukraine.
    - reducesuffering 5y ago
      “I highly doubt Russia would start messing with us out of nowhere” Said millions in Kyiv, right before missiles were launched at their apartments.
      - lillecarl 5y ago
        But it wasn't out of nowhere, Putin didn't want Ukraine to join with the west, so he took action. I'm all with Ukraine but can we at least realize that the war didn't just fall out of the sky, that there's been some back and forth political stuff that lead up to this. Maybe something like joining NATO, the EU or maybe because he just woke up one day and said "I feel like I want Ukraine to be Russian". It's been brewing since before Crimea, and I don't see Putin eyeing Gotland that hard yet.
        helij 5y ago
        Not only it wasn't out of nowhere but there was an actual war going on for 8 years before the Russian invasion started.
        watwut 5y ago
        > Maybe something like joining NATO, the EU Ukraine did not joined either. > maybe because he just woke up one day and said "I feel like I want Ukraine to be Russian". There was progression of Putin theories. He expressed some of them in written form, others in speeches. Both about Ukraine and about Russian place in a world he envisions.
- Y-bar 5y ago
  Zelenskiy was even considered the friendly-to-Russia alternative in the election: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6946395/Russia-welcomes-Volodymyr-Zelensky-suggests-improve-relations-countries.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6946395/Russia-welc...
  - thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
    Zelenskiy's #1 campaign promise was to negotiate peace with Russia - meaning fulfilling Ukraine's part of the Minsk accords, perhaps with some concessions. Overall, about 65% of the votes went to parties supporting it. ~72% if Donbas is included. There was a clear democratic mandate to do it To his credit, he did try to set things in motion. Mere days after, ultra-nationalist right-wing militias threw violent protests, in which they tossed grenades at police, killing three, calling Zelenskiy a traitor and threatening to take his life if peace is enacted. The peace negotiator was arrested for treason. Zelenskiy backed down, reneged on his #1 campaign promise, and started ramping up the tensions. As a result, the polling results for his party dropped from ~50% to mere 17% at the onset of the war. We don't know what happened behind the doors to cause such a 180 turn, but it sure wasn't pretty
- yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
  Those of us from Poland definitely appreciate Sweden's "neutral and peaceful" stance, which meant selling resources to Germany so that the Nazis could slaughter our ancestors. Thanks mate.
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    There's that way of looking at it, or that we have self-preservation. Do you hold every single German accountable for WW2 too? Also this is hardly an apples to apples comparison to compare current Russia to any stage of WW2.
    - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
      I'm sorry that you're finding the truth inconvenient, but yes, those who can't bring themselves to outright condemnation of the war — which includes torture, rape of women and children, mass destruction of civilian homes, war crimes, and genocide — are also morally reprehensible. So which side are you on?
      - lillecarl 5y ago
        I'm on the side of not joining NATO to trigger further actions to be taken by the crazy man to the east. I condemn war, I don't want there to be a war, therefore I don't want more countries to join NATO as it would be another reason for conflict. If war broke out here because we joined NATO, what would you say then?
        AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        Ukraine didn't join NATO. It wasn't on the brink of joining NATO. It got invaded anyway. So if Finland, say, joins NATO and gets invaded, did it get invaded because it joined? Or would it have been invaded anyway? I also condemn war. I don't want there to be war. But given the crazy man in the east, I'd rather have people to help me shoot back if it came to that.
        yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
- watwut 5y ago
  Yes, they did. Russia did not, tho. For the record, Putin did not wanted to allow EU membership either and meddled into Ukraine politics, eu politics and American politics constantly. The principal thing here however is, Putin thinking he can rule other countries and nations is the core issue here.
  - lillecarl 5y ago
    I agree that Putin is the issue, but he's been quite clear of his demands and that there will be repercussions if not upheld. Since Sweden hasn't ever been part of NATO nor felt the need to, why now all of a sudden when that was part of what triggered the conflict putting an entire country into ruins.
    - watwut 5y ago
      His actions also clearly show he will invade and push boundaries whether his demands are met or not. And that he lies a lot and constantly. Anyway, the question was whether Ukraine tried diplomacy. Answer is, yes they did and it did not worked.
    - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
      Because contrary what you appear to believe, Russia's war on Ukraine was never about NATO expansion. The context you are missing is outlined quite clearly in Timofei Sergeitsev's RIA Novosti article, What Russia should do in Ukraine.
      - lillecarl 5y ago
        Not to say you're wrong, but what says you're right other than this one article? There's usually more sides to something than a coin. The US just needs a terror threat to invade countries for oil, so I see that it might just be an excuse. I still don't wanna join NATO, that's a reason for Putin to take Gotland from us.
        yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
- lillecarl 5y ago
  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710541/Russia-moves-military-equipment-Finnish-border-warning-Finland-not-join-NATO.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710541/Russia-mov... So this just happened, apparently Russia doesn't want us to be part of NATO.

Did they though? They knew Putin wouldn't allow a NATO membership to come through. I'm more worried that Russia is gonna fuck with us (Sweden) if we join NATO. This is going to be a deciding factor for my vote, I do not want to be a part of big brother USAs extended military arm, I want us to stay true to what we've been doing for the last 200 years, staying neutral and peaceful. If we chose a side we're in the same boat as everyone else.

chrisseaton 5y ago
Is neutrality the best way to stay peaceful?
- lillecarl 5y ago
  If the option is joining one of the opposing gangs I'd say yes, yes it is
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    Ukraine was neutral, now begging to be let into the EU, and in practice entirely dependent on weapons and training from NATO for national survival. Why do you think Russia picks on Ukraine (neutral) and not Lithuania (allied)?
    - lillecarl 5y ago
      My assumption would be because Ukraine "was last".
Hamuko 5y ago
>I want us to stay true to what we've been doing for the last 200 years, staying neutral and peaceful. If we chose a side we're in the same boat as everyone else. Good to know we can count on you Sweden if we get invaded by Russia. Glad that you also stayed neutral and peaceful during WWII. Not really sure how you managed that, seems really hard. - Finland
- lillecarl 5y ago
  There's quite an obvious difference between helping your neighboring country (like we did in WW2) and joining a war pact that infuriates the enemy even further. - Sweden, the non-aggressive Scandinavian country...
  - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
    Helping your neighbouring country? You're referring to Nazi Germany, right?
- lillecarl 5y ago
  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710541/Russia-moves-military-equipment-Finnish-border-warning-Finland-not-join-NATO.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710541/Russia-mov... I guess the option of joining one of the gangs has it's merits, like having military moved towards your border. Yes the article says the video is unconfirmed so I guess it's just speculation. But when the war breaks out in our countries I won't have any pleasure in the "I told you so".
KerrAvon 5y ago
If you don’t choose a side you may find Russia choosing one for you. That’s the whole point of NATO from the perspective of the member states.
- lillecarl 5y ago
  So the last 200 years of peace doesn't account for any kind of stability? I highly doubt Russia would start messing with us out of nowhere. If we start talking about joining NATO though, then he's got the same leverage on us as Ukraine.
  - reducesuffering 5y ago
    “I highly doubt Russia would start messing with us out of nowhere” Said millions in Kyiv, right before missiles were launched at their apartments.
    - lillecarl 5y ago
      But it wasn't out of nowhere, Putin didn't want Ukraine to join with the west, so he took action. I'm all with Ukraine but can we at least realize that the war didn't just fall out of the sky, that there's been some back and forth political stuff that lead up to this. Maybe something like joining NATO, the EU or maybe because he just woke up one day and said "I feel like I want Ukraine to be Russian". It's been brewing since before Crimea, and I don't see Putin eyeing Gotland that hard yet.
      - helij 5y ago
        Not only it wasn't out of nowhere but there was an actual war going on for 8 years before the Russian invasion started.
      - watwut 5y ago
        > Maybe something like joining NATO, the EU Ukraine did not joined either. > maybe because he just woke up one day and said "I feel like I want Ukraine to be Russian". There was progression of Putin theories. He expressed some of them in written form, others in speeches. Both about Ukraine and about Russian place in a world he envisions.
Y-bar 5y ago
Zelenskiy was even considered the friendly-to-Russia alternative in the election: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6946395/Russia-welcomes-Volodymyr-Zelensky-suggests-improve-relations-countries.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6946395/Russia-welc...
- thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
  Zelenskiy's #1 campaign promise was to negotiate peace with Russia - meaning fulfilling Ukraine's part of the Minsk accords, perhaps with some concessions. Overall, about 65% of the votes went to parties supporting it. ~72% if Donbas is included. There was a clear democratic mandate to do it To his credit, he did try to set things in motion. Mere days after, ultra-nationalist right-wing militias threw violent protests, in which they tossed grenades at police, killing three, calling Zelenskiy a traitor and threatening to take his life if peace is enacted. The peace negotiator was arrested for treason. Zelenskiy backed down, reneged on his #1 campaign promise, and started ramping up the tensions. As a result, the polling results for his party dropped from ~50% to mere 17% at the onset of the war. We don't know what happened behind the doors to cause such a 180 turn, but it sure wasn't pretty
yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
Those of us from Poland definitely appreciate Sweden's "neutral and peaceful" stance, which meant selling resources to Germany so that the Nazis could slaughter our ancestors. Thanks mate.
- lillecarl 5y ago
  There's that way of looking at it, or that we have self-preservation. Do you hold every single German accountable for WW2 too? Also this is hardly an apples to apples comparison to compare current Russia to any stage of WW2.
  - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
    I'm sorry that you're finding the truth inconvenient, but yes, those who can't bring themselves to outright condemnation of the war — which includes torture, rape of women and children, mass destruction of civilian homes, war crimes, and genocide — are also morally reprehensible. So which side are you on?
    - lillecarl 5y ago
      I'm on the side of not joining NATO to trigger further actions to be taken by the crazy man to the east. I condemn war, I don't want there to be a war, therefore I don't want more countries to join NATO as it would be another reason for conflict. If war broke out here because we joined NATO, what would you say then?
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        Ukraine didn't join NATO. It wasn't on the brink of joining NATO. It got invaded anyway. So if Finland, say, joins NATO and gets invaded, did it get invaded because it joined? Or would it have been invaded anyway? I also condemn war. I don't want there to be war. But given the crazy man in the east, I'd rather have people to help me shoot back if it came to that.
      - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
watwut 5y ago
Yes, they did. Russia did not, tho. For the record, Putin did not wanted to allow EU membership either and meddled into Ukraine politics, eu politics and American politics constantly. The principal thing here however is, Putin thinking he can rule other countries and nations is the core issue here.
- lillecarl 5y ago
  I agree that Putin is the issue, but he's been quite clear of his demands and that there will be repercussions if not upheld. Since Sweden hasn't ever been part of NATO nor felt the need to, why now all of a sudden when that was part of what triggered the conflict putting an entire country into ruins.
  - watwut 5y ago
    His actions also clearly show he will invade and push boundaries whether his demands are met or not. And that he lies a lot and constantly. Anyway, the question was whether Ukraine tried diplomacy. Answer is, yes they did and it did not worked.
  - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
    Because contrary what you appear to believe, Russia's war on Ukraine was never about NATO expansion. The context you are missing is outlined quite clearly in Timofei Sergeitsev's RIA Novosti article, What Russia should do in Ukraine.
    - lillecarl 5y ago
      Not to say you're wrong, but what says you're right other than this one article? There's usually more sides to something than a coin. The US just needs a terror threat to invade countries for oil, so I see that it might just be an excuse. I still don't wanna join NATO, that's a reason for Putin to take Gotland from us.
      - yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
lillecarl 5y ago
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710541/Russia-moves-military-equipment-Finnish-border-warning-Finland-not-join-NATO.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710541/Russia-mov... So this just happened, apparently Russia doesn't want us to be part of NATO.