4 ms·
I think the Chess example is also interesting in that it demonstrates why zugzwang is a consequence of chess strategy, even though it appears arbitrary at first
by xg15 5y ago
I think the Chess example is also interesting in that it demonstrates why zugzwang is a consequence of chess strategy, even though it appears arbitrary at first glance.
Imagine Chess would allow players to pass. Then black could pass to try and wait for the pawn to reach h7. But of course then white could simply also pass instead of moving the pawn. The "optimal" strategy for both players would be to endlessly pass back to the other player, as any actual move would put themselves at a disadvantage. So even with passing allowed, there is no way the black player could actually take the pawn. Instead, the game would simply lock-up.
I believe this is a general strategy: In any situation where passing would give an advantage, the other player could immediately undo the advantage by passing as well.
So in effect, Chess always has zugzwang, by the way the game works - codifying it as an explicit rule is just a convenience.
- atoav 5y agoNot sure if the english connotation of the word differs from the German one, but in the German meaning it stands for you having to do a specific move _because_ the other person made a move. A common example would be you having to drink a schnaps because all other people at the table drink one too. So it is not about the fact that you have to do a turn, but that you have to do a specific turn, which you may or may not have done if the Zugzwang had not existed.
- xg15 5y agoInteresting. I'm german too and I never interpreted it that way. I haven't actually encountered the term in a game context often, so maybe there are different interpretations - but there is also the figure of speech "Er steht unter Zugzwang" (he is in zugzwang). I'm pretty sure that saying means someone is under pressure to make some move or descision - not a specific one. > having to drink a schnaps because all other people at the table drink one too That sounds more like Gruppenzwang (peer pressure) to me.
- atoav 5y agoI am Austrian, maybe this is one of those differences. Gruppenzwang works as well, but the situation I described is one where you might like to be drunk, but you might not like to drink Schnaps. So because you don't want your friends to be much more drunk than you are, their move to drink schnaps pressures you into drinking as well, otherwise you'd be the least drunk etc. Zugzwang must not signify a specific move that is correct. But it most often means the need to move arises because of outside circumstances. And these circumstances can very well limit the available options. A politician that has to say something in reaction to a crisis might be under Zugzwang to show some reaction, but another hypothetical politician that is expected to say a specific thing (e.g. a public excuse) is under a much stronger Zugzwang.